Author Topic: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.  (Read 8094 times)

cwlongshot

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Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« on: May 10, 2015, 07:30:51 AM »
OK, This is something I have thought about for some time now.  I had a short action Winchester long ago. Nice shooter but plain jane.. Sold it. I bought a Mini Mauser, in a STUPID DUMB ASS moment...sold it too.  :-[ :-[ :-[ I have had AR's, semi's in general are not my first choice. I like the looks and feel of the Ares SCR rifle as well... to throw in a wild card.
 
I need some help to decide between a couple guns here. My top choices are, a CZ 527, Ruger Predator, Mossberg MVP or Aries SCR.

First off what I must have:

1) Accurate (Of coarse this is #!)
2) Shorter OAL. 16" OK 18.5" ideal, 20" OK, 22" Is too long
3) 223/5.56 caliber
4) Removable magazine gun
5) Composite stock
6) Be a proven quality Bolt gun

Things I would like to have:

1) AR mags would be nice
2) Threaded barrel would be nice
3) Lighter weight better.
4) Larger dia barrel.

 I have shot all the above listed rifles but the SCR and for a number of reasons I like each of them.

I would say my least favorite is the Mossberg. Mostly because its overweight at 8#+ :o BUT with a AR mag, its the best magazine choice. Nice Bbl length and profile too.

I have a Ruger ranch in 300BO and its THE most accurate Ruger I have ever owned. I also have 6 mags that would also work in the Predator in 223. Great weight and accuracy potential is there too.

The CZ is just a quality piece. Its looks need to "grow" on you and I have passed this short fall. ESPECIALLY if or once you shoot one. I have actual had the pleasure to have shot six different 527's in two calibers. Each has been a 1" HONEST 1" shooter at 100 yards. Its a mini Mauser action, one that's near and dear to my heart.

The SCR is VERY comfortable and a GREAT pointer. Mods are plentiful as its a AR with a different butt. AR mags.. duhh :) Light and great handling.

I'm limited to 10 round mags here.  >:( :-[ :-[ But things change and so do locations. :) AR mags are not expensive. Ruger mages although in $$ are not high quality being that they are all plastic is not so great. The CZ is double the magazine cost at 50-60$ ea.

Costs, well the Ruger will be least expensive at $400 the MVP about $125 more and the CZ and SCR a bit more still. SCR highest cost at $800+.

I can stroll right into my dealer and buy the MVP now... same for the SCR. But the Predator will take a lil searching and the CZ might require gun broker.

What say you?

CW
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rw

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 09:49:30 AM »
Buds had the cz for about 560 a few weeks ago, thats over $100 less than the one i had in 762x39. I have handled all of the above and none compare to the cz. I had to wipe drool off of mine several times, everybody who saw it said thats a sexy rifle.

Pinsnscrews

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 12:45:17 PM »
You might want to check out the Ruger Ranch in .223

It is the American Predator with a threaded 16.25inch bull barrel. Well balanced and very accurate for the money.
It's my DiMMe

cwlongshot

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 01:19:45 PM »
You might want to check out the Ruger Ranch in .223

It is the American Predator with a threaded 16.25inch bull barrel. Well balanced and very accurate for the money.

 I have one in 300 Black..  ;D ;D



Quote
I have a Ruger ranch in 300BO and its THE most accurate Ruger I have ever owned. I also have 6 mags that would also work in the Predator in 223. Great weight and accuracy potential is there too.

I prefer a lil longer bbl  for this caliber. ;)

CW
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 01:22:30 PM by cwlongshot »
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Ramjet

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 07:50:36 PM »
Savage

Worked up some loads for younger brother that Savage was the most accurate little .223 I have ever shot they have models you are looking for. The accutrigger is fantastic.

cwlongshot

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 12:11:36 PM »
I looked at two rifles today.

Savage 25, walking varmint in 223. & a Ruger American Compact  all weather 223. 

I like them both. Like the Savage allot. Leaning to the Ruger at nearly 200$ less....

CW
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rw

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 02:32:27 PM »
If you want a cheap but workable one try out a savage axis.. It is quite easy to fix the trigger weight and stiffness. Mine was under $300 out the door at china mart with 200 rounds of 223

cwlongshot

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 04:36:22 PM »
I looked at a Axis... its long (Action), heavy and felt "klunky"...

I also looked a another Savage and I DID like this one. It was a M25 Walking Varminter. Its almost everything I want...only at 600$! Its only a 4round mag and that's all poly. Not a deal killer, but...

I also looked at a Remington American All-weather. I had not considered the advantages of a stainless rifle... its a good addition! ;)

Now BOTH of these rifles have long barrels, easily pruned and re-crowned. Threading, is another addition. I was just reading up on these two and found the Ruger is also offered in a Compact version. ;)

Now I really like the Savage, but a stainless Ruger at almost 200 less costs....

CW
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Ramjet

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 05:34:15 PM »
I can tell you after shooting the Savage the money will be no object......yes they are that good.

DenStinett

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 07:27:41 PM »
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber
So tell me again how Trump will be worse then the last 8 years !

rw

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 10:28:36 PM »
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber

It will run in most, but some guns probably wont like it. My savage does not like 556 at all, no pressure sign but point of aim was off a good bit. I know the gun can handle well above 556 level pressures. If mine stays 223 the barrel is getting set back some and it will get reamed to 223 wylde (which handles both) soon. But most likely its getting a 300 blackout barrel instead.

cwlongshot

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 04:14:50 AM »
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber

That's HOGWASH!  Dimentions of the two are IDENTHCAL IN EVERY WAY.

THE SINGLE DIFFERENCE is in the was the govt measures pressure compared to all other calibers. It's measured forward of the shoulder, ( After peak pressure curve) the standard measures are in the body of the case. This results in the 5.56 is higher pressured when measured traditionally.

Problems occurs in lower quality firearms that cannot withstand these increased pressures. Different is up to 15K so it can be substantial.

 There is MUCH misinformation out there.
CW
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 04:18:08 AM by cwlongshot »
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sqlbullet

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 07:37:37 AM »
There is MUCH misinformation out there.

Yes there is!

Pressure specs are the same.  Proof specs are not.  SAAMI/SCAPT pressure for both is 380 MPa (55,114 PSI) and CIP/EPVAT pressure rating for both is 430 MPa (62,366 PSI).  Again...Both values are accepted as correct, depending only on the method of testing.  However, both methods call for a proof test of 125% of the specified max, and this does result in a difference in required proof tests.  The SAAMI proof test rounds are loaded to a lower pressure than the CIP rounds.

Cartridge dimensions are very close, but not quite the same.  There are small differences in the r1 and r2 radius at the shoulder.  Also, the 223 holds and additional .3 grains of water, due to thicker case walls on the 5.56. Drawings in the reference links below.

Chamber dimensions again are very close, but not the same.  Specifically the leade in the 223 (.085") is .077" shorter than the leade in the 5.56 (.162").  It is generally accepted, although subject to some debate, that the problems with pressure are related to the leade.

Normally in the firing process there are two pressure spikes.  The first occurs when pressure is building enough to overcome neck tension and bullet mass to get the bullet moving.  Once that happens pressure troughs a bit, until the bullet hits the rifling, when additional energy is needed to engrave the rifling on the bullet.

The concern is getting a 5.56 round tested and certified in a 5.56 barrel/leade that has a projectile with a short ogive.  That round, chambered in a 223 chamber with the shorter leade could result in the projectile resting against the rifling.  This would combine the resistance of the neck tension with the resistance of rifling engraving into one force.  This would raise the peak pressure on firing, potentially to dangerous levels, especially, as CW comments, in lower quality rifles.  Further, it has been observed in extreme cases of short leade and short ogive that the COAL may be shortened slightly on chambering the round.  This decreases case capacity which is also bad.

In a perfect storm scenario you end up with a rifle that was tested to the lower SAAMI proof spec.  The chamber was the very last one cut before the reamer was retired.  As a result, the chamber is at the very smallest limit of accepted dimension and the leade is also at the very shortest end of the accepted spec.  You have just put a 5.56 round in the chamber with a long tangent ogive.  Unknown to you this is the hottest round that could be loaded in the batch.  While within absolute max spec, it will be right at the limit.  And the short ogive results in a small amount of bullet set back as you cam the bolt home, and the bullet sitting right on the rifling.  You now have the recipe to perform a second proof test on your gun, this time to CIP spec.  Some guns don't pass.

The biggest problem is in point of fact you can run a 5.56 in a 223 chamber.  It will "run" into the chamber just fine.  It just may not be safe.

So, to be safe, don't run 5.56 commercial ammo in a 223 Remington chamber.  If you are reloading, load away those Lake City brass.  But do sort by headstamp as the 5.56 cases are 1% smaller inside on average.  When switching brass from 223 to 5.56 reduce 10% and work up.

References are found here: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Also, to be clear, while SAAMI/SCAPT are interchangeable names for the same test conventions, CIP/EPVAT are not.  CIP and EPVAT share a common pressure test convention, but the complete EPVAT battery of tests also validate reliability in military weapons and terminal ballistic performance.  Those differences are not relevant to a pressure discussion and can be disregarded.

cwlongshot

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2015, 07:24:35 AM »
Well I'll say that the differences you mention in shoulder are not worth mentioning... But at this stage of my life you would think I was smart enough not to speak in finites or absolutes. As there is almost always accept ions.  :o

The differences between mil brass and commercial is old hat/common knowledge to most loaders. Again yes less volume from thicker brass. It is more because military IS 5.56...

Leade, yes there is a slight difference here too. But that's the chamber not the cartridge. Not it IS what the 5.56 was designed for.

Yes agreed now and above. The really only difference is PRESSURES. THE 556 will usually run higher. As you mention. With some firearms dangerously higher. This is partially because of where peak pressure is "read" neck shoulder that isn't conventional sammi. Or case that is.

Again agreed, safe than sorry. Only chamber a gun for cartridge on its barrel. Unless your knowledgable enough to know the how's and whys of the differences.

CW
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sqlbullet

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Re: Wanting a 223, and prefering a bolt gun.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2015, 01:44:54 PM »
CW...just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I just wanted to elaborate in case someone under-informed or wrong informed stumbles on the thread.