Author Topic: 40 Super Questions  (Read 3146 times)

PointBlank82

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40 Super Questions
« on: May 16, 2016, 04:26:17 AM »
I've worked up some reloads for my new 40 Super Barrel in my FNX45 Tactical and was wondering if anyone here had done so with an FNP 45?

Tony Rumore provided me with some intitial load data, however I wanted to use 220 gr X-Treme plated bullets I have an abundance of.

First Loads:

135 gr Nosler JHP
Winchester Small Magnum Pistol Primers
AA #7
Virgin Starline brass
OAL 1.250"

Sets of five.

13 gr
13.5 gr
14 gr
14.5 gr
15 gr
15.5 gr
16 gr
16.3 gr
16.6 gr
16.8 gr
17 gr

220 gr X-Treme Plated Flat Point
Winchester Small Magnum Pistol Primers
AA #7
Virgin Starline brass
OAL 1.250"

Sets of five.

8.5 gr
9 gr
9.5 gr
10 gr
10.5 gr
11 gr
11.5 gr
12 gr
12.3 gr
12.6 gr
12.8 gr
13 gr


After sleeping on it, I'm debating pulling the last 20 rds of 220 gr and walking up in .2 gr increments from 11 gr to 12 gr.

The maximum AA #7 charge Tony's data showed was for 200 gr XTP at 13.7 gr which produced 1400 fps out of a 5" barrel. I'm not certain a 0.7 gr reduction is enough for the plated bullet and 20 gr of extra weight. The 220 gr plated is only slightly longer than a 200 gr XTP however.


I also have a box of Underwood 220 gr Hardcase 40 Super on the way and intend to disassemble one to measure the power charge.
Anyone done this before?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 04:29:09 AM by PointBlank82 »

The_Shadow

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 05:56:32 AM »
PointBlank82, these are you ladders for testing I suppose?  I hope you have a chronograph to run them over to see where the velocities are.  Tony Rumore is one who has shared his data for the 40Super and he has an extensive amount of testing for it.

Since he started working with the 40Super there are some good powders that have come to market to help as well.  Just be careful and inspect every brass for the slightest signs of pressure, primers alone are not the best indicators.

Be safe & best regards! :D
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PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 09:36:48 AM »
PointBlank82, these are you ladders for testing I suppose?  I hope you have a chronograph to run them over to see where the velocities are.  Tony Rumore is one who has shared his data for the 40Super and he has an extensive amount of testing for it.

Since he started working with the 40Super there are some good powders that have come to market to help as well.  Just be careful and inspect every brass for the slightest signs of pressure, primers alone are not the best indicators.

Be safe & best regards! :D

Yup, I used his data and have a chrony. He recommended AA #7 and eventually I'll try Longshot. First need to run against known data and check function in my gun. I think I may be the first to convert an FNX45 into 40 super. After hours of Google I found references to people who retrofit the FNP45 about 5 years ago, but never any detailed load development or studies.

PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 04:21:56 AM »
So I received my box of Underwood 220 gr 40 Super yesterday and pulled down one of the rounds...

Powder is either aa #7 or aa #9 (probably #7). Took a lot of force to pull the bullet so think some of the powder got away, but there appears to be about 11.5-12.5 gr in there (based on weighing the other rounds and subtracting off the weight of the bullet and case, wish I'd thought to weigh before disassembly). I might pull another apart to get a closer weight, but this stuff is advertised at 1350 fps.

They appear to load these to 1.247-1.248" OAL as well.

Based on this info I will definitely be pulling half the rounds I loaded earlier and stepping everything down 10-20%. They're out of 135 gr, so cannot cross reference on that.

The_Shadow

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 05:58:46 AM »
PointBlank82, Can you take a good close up picture of the powder and post it?  There is a difference in the #7 and #9.  However, Underwood has been using some LOVEX powders (Shooter's World) that are similar to the Accurate Arms powders.

Quote
Took a lot of force to pull the bullet so think some of the powder got away,
Yes, it takes a fine touch to have the bullet just drop out easy so you can capture all of the powder.  I also work over a clean sheet of typing paper, while separating the bullet and powder and I use a small artist paint brush to sweep the small kernels off the bullet and my fingers and back into the scale pan.
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PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2016, 06:51:27 PM »
So, I didn't pull my max load reloads...

220 gr Underwood Hardcast averaged 1258.4 ft/s.

My 220 gr Xtreme Plated handload 13 gr AA #7 load averaged 1234 ft/s

My 135 gr JHP 17 gr AA #7 handload averaged 1686 ft/s

I'll post the rest of the figures with SD once I import into a spreadsheet.

The gun ran the underwood 220 gr and my 135 gr flawlessly in 15 Rd intervals. Ran into some FTF with the 220 gr plated once I got past 1100 fps. Rounds were nose diving into the feed ramp cutting into the soft tips. Might be able to resolve with some beefier mag springs (if available) or I'll just reserve the 220 gr to 45 super territory. I really want to get them running at 1300 fps though since the accuracy was improving the faster they went.

Interestingly enough, the underwood brass showed some smileys, but my max loads didnt. Wonder what powder they used.

I also ladder tested some Longshot with 180 gr fmj up to 10 gr... WOW, those went 1325 fps out of a 4.6" KKM barrel. LS might actually be even BETTER in 40 Super than AA #7. Thinking of loading some up tonight.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 06:55:00 PM by PointBlank82 »

PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 07:56:24 PM »
Standard disclaimer: This is data from MY Chrony for ammo shot from MY gun! Use at your own peril and wear PPE.

40 Super                              
Virgin Starline Brass                              
OAL 1.250"                              
135 gr Nosler JHP
Winchester Small Magnum Pistol Primer                              
                              
Powder   AA #7                           
Weight   Velocity               Average   Std. Dev   Minimum   Maximum   
13.5   1365   1384   1397   1328   1408   1376.4   31.44   1328   1408   Notes
14.0   1461   1408   1389   1417   1467   1428.4   34.10   1389   1467   
14.5   1498   1447   1444   1464   1430   1456.6   26.11   1430   1498   
15.0   1490   1515   1476   1526   1534   1508.2   24.48   1476   1534   Very Accurate and Controllable
15.5   1592   1578   1582   1575   1568   1579.0   8.888   1568   1592   
16.0   1606   1605   1629   1579   1607   1605.2   17.73   1579   1629   
16.3   1633   1622   1638   1641   1660   1638.8   13.88   1622   1660   
16.6   1667   1683   1680   1666   1664   1672.0   8.803   1664   1683   
16.8   1684   1689   1694   1680   1672   1683.8   8.438   1672   1694   
17.0   1684   1685   1694   1680      1685.8   5.909   1680   1694   

40 Super                              
Virgin Starline Brass                              
OAL 1.250"                              
220 gr Xtreme Plated FP                              
Winchester Small Magnum Pistol Primer
                              
Powder   AA #7                           
Weight   Velocity               Average   Std. Dev   Minimum   Maximum   Notes
9.5   947.6   975.2   934.2   958.1   919.6   946.9   21.41   919.6   975.2   Soft shooting, mediocre accurace
10.0   919.4   987.9   959.6   961.6   983.1   962.3   27.09   919.4   987.9   Soft shooting, VERY accurate
10.5   1027   1009   1007   1007   1039   1018   14.53   1007   1039   Keyholing?
11.0   1042   1035   1003   1045   1052   1035   19.11   1003   1052   
11.5   1071   1066   1049   1162   1077   1085   44.29   1049   1162   FTF beginning & nose cutting
12.0   1156   1126   1155   1095   1175   1141   31.29   1095   1175   
12.3   1134   1147   1194   1156   1176   1161   23.79   1134   1194   
12.6   1231   1205   1221   1262   1184   1221   29.18   1184   1262   
12.8   1154   1231   1218   1218   1228   1210   31.74   1154   1231   
13.0   1252   1256   1221   1215   1273   1243   24.58   1215   1273   

Underwood 220 gr Hardcast               
Velocity      Average   Std Dev   Min   Max
1256      1258.4   8.942674576   1242   1275
1242               
1258               
1265               
1268               
1250               
1249               
1275               
1257               
1256               
1248               
1263               
1256               
1267               
1266               
               

Basically, this cartridge is duplicating what my 10mm Mechtech can do... out of a 5" barrel. The recoil impulse was similar to full power 180 gr loads out of my G29; these are manageable to shoot one-handed and will probably be very easy to shoot with a compensator, especially the 135 gr.          
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 08:18:01 PM by PointBlank82 »

TonyRumore

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2016, 02:00:58 PM »
The data I have been providing was all worked up back in 1998.  There are quite a few more powder options today.  Rather than using AA#7 or #9 as I have recommended in the past,  I would go with N105.  I have not yet tried any Longshot in the 40 Super.

I ran some N105 through my 6" Witness and is as follows:

17.0gr N105 135gr Sierra 1820fps
16.5gr N105 150gr Sierra 1735fps
16.0gr N105 165gr Sierra 1675fps
15.0gr N105 180gr Sierra 1565fps
13.7gr N105 200gr XTP 1450fps

Tony Rumore
Tromix


PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2016, 07:27:17 PM »
AAR:
I modified a G17 ISMI SS Guide Rod to fit my FNX45 and loaded it with a new 24# Wolff spring. This setup functioned flawlessly and appears to have fixed the FTF issues I was experiencing. Tested several 15 round mags of full power 135 gr, 180 gr and 220 gr bullets with no issues even with the original power magazine springs.

The 135 gr JHP loads really shine with the 24# spring. Easy to control (similar to a long slide G20 actually) and the gun is lighter than when loaded with 230 JHP. The 220 gr had what felt like a delayed recoil response, less harsh than with the DPM recoil kit and my polymer frame did not sustain any damage. The checkered grip does eat into your hand though.

I'm on the second loading of the star-line brass which is holding up well. If any of you go follow me and go down the reloading path, the resizing tips others use with .357 sig apply here as well; use a 45 ACP carbide die to perform the first pass through sizing and the use the 40 Super Redding die to bump the shoulder and size down the neck. You can avoid a case lubricant this way and if you have a Dillon 650 (I don't... yet), you can still do a single pass on per pull.

PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2016, 06:01:04 PM »
Did my ladder test today. First off, experienced 5% failure to fire with the rifle primes; guess the FNX45T firing pin just isn't up to reliable ignition of the CCI #450. Good thing it's DA/SA! Will be using small magnum pistol primers exclusively with the slow powders going forward.

After 16.2 gr, I began to experience FTF issues with the pistol and switched to the extra power spring magazine (P14 magazine 10% Wolff spring). Started happening again at 16.3 gr right at the #6 shot. Same issue G21 has in this wildcat. A compensator probably would reduce slide speed and fix the problem, but I don't think the extra 25 ft/s is worth it.

The most accurate load actually was the 16.1 gr load which also had the second best SD and ES; the 16.5 gr load has better statistics, but would require a compensator to make the gun reliable.

I also noticed that the 16.4 and 16.5gr loads swelled the brass enough that the spent cases wouldn't go into my plastic ammo trays without alittle nudge. I will measure these later to see how much case head expansion increased; regardless, I didn't see any smiley's or other brass distortions like I saw with the Underwood 220 gr lead FP loaded to 1258 ft/s. All of the primers looked great, but that is probably because they're rifle primers that don't flow at lower pressures.

Overall, I'm somewhat  disappointed with H110 in this cartridge. 16.1 gr of powder to reliably make 1200 ft/s with a huge muzzle flash and boom? I was hoping that the trends shown in the original Tromix data that indicated an AA #7 type powder offered the best performance could be expanded upon if a magnum small rifle primer was used. Might be a fun variant to intentionally shoot at indoor ranges/night shoots.

However, if the pressure is significantly lower (will estimate with COAL after resizing) than AA #7, this powder might extend my brass life enough to make the ~ 3gr (~$0.01/rd) of extra powder worth the cost. At $0.25/case, with perhaps 5-6 loadings, that's $0.04/shot for brass. If I can extend that to 10 loadings with a slower powder, the cost comes down to $0.025/ shot, and with the extra powder increases to $0.035/shot.

Of course, I'm shooting a kickass wildcat, so who cares how much it costs?

40 Super
Virgin Starline Brass
OAL 1.250"
220 gr Xtreme Plated FP
CCI #450 Small Magnum Rifle Primer

PowderH110
Weight_Average_StdDev_Min____Max___ES__KE
15.4___1126____22.2___1106__1162__56___619
15.6___1146____13.6___1132__1161__29___641
15.8___1164____7.6____1155__1174__19___662
16.0___1185____32.7___1148__1229__81___685
16.1___1197____9.7____1185__1209__24___700
16.2___1224____17.8___1205__1244__39___732
16.3___1217____8.9____1202__1225__23___723
16.4___1222____11.6___1210__1238__28___729
16.5___1227____5.2____1221__1235__14___735
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 06:04:37 PM by PointBlank82 »

PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2016, 06:53:58 PM »
The data I have been providing was all worked up back in 1998.  There are quite a few more powder options today.  Rather than using AA#7 or #9 as I have recommended in the past,  I would go with N105.  I have not yet tried any Longshot in the 40 Super.

I ran some N105 through my 6" Witness and is as follows:

17.0gr N105 135gr Sierra 1820fps
16.5gr N105 150gr Sierra 1735fps
16.0gr N105 165gr Sierra 1675fps
15.0gr N105 180gr Sierra 1565fps
13.7gr N105 200gr XTP 1450fps

Tony Rumore
Tromix

Tony,
Where these with magnum small pistol primers? I saw some N105 at my local gun store for $43/lb... Debating on buying some.

PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2016, 04:47:41 AM »
Ok so I'm moving away from using the 135 gr JHP Nosler.

I have 2k of the Fed 135 gr EFMJ bullets I'm gonna work up a nice fast load with. I belive this will make good rounds for self defense.

Also just picked up a Lee. 401 sizing die after reading some of the threads on here about repressing 41 mag bullets for 10mm... well the 40 Super has more case volume so using 41 mag bullets makes even more sense.

Does anyone play with the 210 gr speer GDHP/Deep Curls in 41 mag? What I'm going for here is a nice woods load that I can use with my 220 gr plated for practice.

The_Shadow

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2016, 06:50:36 AM »
About the resizing of the 0.410" bullets, it has been a two step sizing if I remember.  You might want to check on that.
First was to 0.406" and then to 0.401"  Maybe some one else can chime in on that.
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PointBlank82

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2016, 04:31:48 AM »
The threads I saw said it could be done either way. I looked for a die for .406 but couldn't find one. Can anyone recommend? Looks like they make molds in that size.

The_Shadow

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Re: 40 Super Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2016, 07:20:39 AM »
Lyman shows one for their sizer luber, Lee would likely make one custom for you at whatever size you want.
You could even take and have the Lee 0.401 bored to open it up yourself.
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