Author Topic: Load Data - Warning  (Read 37473 times)

sqlbullet

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2016, 07:39:39 PM »
Smiled cases that are buldged badly should not be reloaded.  Slight bulge or other brass from Glocks is fine to reload.  There is a sticky with pictures.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 06:58:50 AM by sqlbullet »

DM1906

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2016, 11:31:43 PM »
Correct me if Im wrong,brass fired from glock pistols are not supposed to be reloaded! Yes or no?
That bubble, bulge after being fired is now a weak link, yes or no.
I recently read a new designed die to push the bulge back to straight before being resized. That is FACT.
Is that brass now 100% perfect to resize,reload fire?  Lee

Smiles are bad. Discard the brass. Period. Bulges (bubbles), on the other hand, iron them out with a Lee FCD bulge buster or Redding pass-through die. I've been reusing Glock-fired brass for 25 years. No problems.
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The_Shadow

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2016, 05:41:51 AM »
Here is the video link of the Redding GRX setup being used.  I also use the LEE FCD die with ts guts removed as a Bulge Buster setup....

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tommac919

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2016, 07:42:04 AM »
Vid showed pic of smiles but he didn't talk much about the problem of a damaged case...
But still explained the problem well enough.

When I need, I use the Lee sizer without guts, but it's only every now and then. Usu the regular sizing die solves the problem for me.

But looking at the price of the GRX die at $82 (carbide), I think I'd just opt for a LW barrel at $99.

The_Shadow

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2016, 11:58:01 AM »
As I have mentioned before using the LEE FCD without the guts,I "pass - through" size all 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 9x25 Dillon cases prior to regular sizing and depriming.  The reason is a simple one for me, I achieve 100% reliability of feeding and functioning, therefore it becomes the essential part of my handloading practices.

I also have utilized the "pass - through" sizing process with 380 ACP and 45 ACP using the appropriate LEE FCD dies. 

I am about the start "pass - through" for 9mm cases as soon as I can get the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 9x18mm (9mm Makarov) to work with...
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gandog56

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2016, 02:35:51 PM »
Pass through for 9mm is a problem. It is actually not a true straight wall pistol case, it has a slight taper. Pass through destroys that taper.
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crazywednesday

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2016, 12:58:12 PM »
I have never seen a spec that indicated it had slight taper.

Justin

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2016, 01:38:14 PM »
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

9mm is a taper cartridge, and can be 'bulge busted' with a 9mm Mak FCD.

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kilibreaux

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2016, 03:21:17 AM »
Redline's question is the same as mine.  Even with very light loads, my stock G20 barrel produces case head expansion that is on the upper limits of what people consider "stopping" points.

Unfortunately case head expansion is not a valid indicator of total pressure.  A larger than spec chamber - GLOCKS, will allow a brass case that flows like plastic under high pressure, to expand to meet the chamber wall, then "spring back" as brass does.  This results in a "measured" greater than recommended case head expansion yet has in reality told you NOTHING about total pressure.  The case can ONLY expand to the limit of the chamber.  Different alloys of brass will result in different "rebound" or contraction amounts of the brass...so total case head expansion tells you nothing.  A fully flattened primer tells you a LOT more....as does a "smeared" primer that indicates the slide started unlocking even before the spring-loaded firing pin could get out of the way....except in a Glock or XD which has a spring HOLDING the firing pin forward as the slide cycles!

sqlbullet

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2016, 07:41:22 AM »
I gotta dissent here.

Case head expansion is not a reliable indicator between guns.  e.g. you can't measure a case head from your gun and compare it to a generic chart and know anything.

But, for a given firearm, case heads will expand consistently as pressure increases (too a point).  I have seen this in all my guns.  And I maintain data for my guns for just this purpose.

That said, there are some very specific rules that have to be followed for this method to work.

1.  You have to use a micrometer that measures to ten-thousandths.  .001" is not good enough.
2.  You have to do all your tests with new brass from the same maker, ideally from the same lot.  Used brass will have work hardened to varying degrees and this will affect the outcome.
3.  It is useful to have some reference data.  Underwood loads at the very edge of SAAMI spec, and uses virgin starline brass.  I consider them a valuable reference for case head expansion on max loads.

I would also comment that 10mm is a high enough impulse round that it is not uncommon to get some firing pin wipe in many guns with perfectly safe loads.  My Witness guns, for instance, wipe every primer, every time.  This is because the slide acceleration overcomes the firing pin spring.

gandog56

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2016, 07:39:00 AM »
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

9mm is a taper cartridge, and can be 'bulge busted' with a 9mm Mak FCD.

Now THAT I never thought of. But sounds good. I have way over 1000 cases laying around that I just may try that with.
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DM1906

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2016, 06:54:10 AM »
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

9mm is a taper cartridge, and can be 'bulge busted' with a 9mm Mak FCD.

The 9mm Luger is, in fact, a tapered cartridge. However, if you feel the need to "bulge bust" them, something is very wrong. Bulged 9mm brass is junk brass, and should not be reused. The 9mm case is robust, more so than the pressure it should ever be subject to (+P+). The brass is thicker in all dimensions (mouth, wall, web, and head), and volume smaller, than cases designed for significantly greater volume and higher pressure. If your 9mm brass is bulging, something is very wrong.
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The_Shadow

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2016, 07:20:53 AM »
It goes back to not all brass is created equal either!  The pressures for 9mm is all over the place Std pressure and +P and
+P+ as to are the chambers being anywhere from great support to loose as a goose...
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DM1906

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2016, 08:08:09 AM »
It goes back to not all brass is created equal either!  The pressures for 9mm is all over the place Std pressure and +P and
+P+ as to are the chambers being anywhere from great support to loose as a goose...

No doubt. Since the 9mm was/is the preferred and most prolific SMG cartridge (by a WIDE margin) for nearly a century, the current design is also that old. It remains essentially unchanged, dimensionally. Modern metallurgy and manufacturing processes further improve the durability. With a maximum +P+ pressure similar to the .40SW (35K PSI), it should be a moot issue. They easily withstand the exceptionally "loose" and fluted chambers common in hyper-cyclic rate SMG's with no issues. Flute embossing common with .40SW and .45ACP is rarely seen on 9mm cases. Bulged brass is either depleted (used up, by whatever means), or severely over-pressured. Either way, not suitable for reuse.
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The_Shadow

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Re: Load Data - Warning
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2016, 12:06:05 PM »
I have seen and read where there has been some issues in the 9mm reloadings and yes the use of the 9mm Mak FCD die does help with bringing the lowest part of the cases back down to size.  Especially guys who are shooting competition and are looking for the best reliability of feeding without stoppages.

Why are they not getting sized?  The use of a carbide sizer die has a radiused opening and the thickness of the top of shell holder occupy the space. The older steel dies used less radius so they actually reached down a little more toward the extractor ring cut.

The pressures for +P and +P+ do add to some extra expansion in combination of loose chambers and yes those with excessive feed ramp bevels.

Here is some pressure info that is 9mm specific;
Quote
9mm Plus Pressure Plus by Charles E. Petty
Basicly..... Is it worth it to beat the snot out of your firearm for a little extra?



The current SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) standard for 9mm Luger ammunition specifies a maximum product average chamber pressure of 37,400 p.s.i., but, the +P+ loads exceed this by a substantial margin. A limit of 42,000 p.s.i. has been proposed for this ammunition. For comparison, proof load pressure (nominal average) is set at 49,800 p.s.i. Now the situation is even further confused, for Remington has begun to market +P 9mm Luger ammunition with a proposed pressure limit of 38,500 p.s.i. To clarify, +P ammunition is available for commercial sale while +P+ loads are not.
All of this raises the question of what the civilian shooter can use in his gun. Even though the ammunition manufacturers take pains to insure that special law enforcement loads do not circulate in civilian channels, it is unrealistic to expect that some will not "leak" out. The same is certainly true for M882 service ammunition, and it is important that the civilian shooter who encounters any of these loads be able to recognize them and understand that this ammunition is different. M882 NATO ammunition as loaded by Olin Corp. (Winchester) and formerly loaded by Federal is currently specified to drive a 124 grain FMJ bullet at 375 meters per second (1230 f.p.s.), which puts it in nearly the same league as the various +P+ loads.

Winchester requires purchasers of +P+ ammunition to sign a release which states in part: "The 9mm 115 grain +P+ cartridges covered in this purchase order are specially loaded to achieve higher velocity. Therefore, the pressure level is higher than standard 9mm Luger cartridges. Individual cartridges may achieve pressure which may approach or exceed the proof load pressure a particular pistol may have been subjected to in factory proofing.
This cartridge is not recommended for use in any aluminum frame and/or cylinder pistols and may cause damage to modern steel pistols because of the higher pressures.

"THESE CARTRIDGES SHOULD BE USED IN MODERN PISTOLS ONLY. CHECK THE CONDITION OF THE PISTOL OFTEN. IF DOUBT EXISTS AS TO THE USE OF THESE CARTRIDGES IN YOUR PISTOL, CONSULT THE PISTOL MANUFACTURER." The demand for +P+ loadings has caused some consternation among firearm and ammunition manufacturers and there has been some finger pointing both ways. So, in an effort to clarify the situation, all of the major manufacturers and importers of the popular "wondernines" were queried about their position on the use of NATO and +P+ ammunition in their products. This is something of a hot potato as far as the firearms manufacturers are concerned, and most were understandably cautious or did not reply at all.

A Smith & Wesson spokesman indicated that S&W was not in favor of using +P+ ammunition, although it was studying the subject. This presents an interesting paradox, for the Illinois State Police, one of the first agencies to ask for +P+ loadings, is a major user of S&W

While increasing bullet velocity increases energy, it is questionable whether this is really meaningful in practical terms. A 200 f.p.s. increase in velocity (about what you get going from standard to +P+ 9mm ammunition) does not guarantee significantly better results in actual shooting situations. When you consider that this gain, roughly 15%, is accomplished at an increase in pressure that could be as much as 33%, it makes me wonder if it is all worthwhile.
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