Author Topic: 1911--primer flow issue  (Read 628 times)

Texashogman

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1911--primer flow issue
« on: August 14, 2017, 09:28:51 AM »
gun is the RIA 52000 pro ultra match HC- 10mm, 6" barrel-- factory 20 pound recoil spring, the firing pin spring seems like a heavy duty one (but I have no way to measure it)-- firing pin is 9mm style/diameter and measures .0695" and the FP hole measures .0715" (FP clearance is .002") I have polished the breach face with flitz polish, and installed an OS EGW flat bottom FPS with just a small radius filed to it ---supposedly the gun is "assembled and hand fitted by RIA gun smiths in-house" ---I have noticed that from the factory, my firing pin strikes are off center

so here is my issue:

with hot hand-loads (but not yet full book max) and "hot factory" ammo I am getting primer flow/shear on my primers

primers are still round at the edge, but about 1 grain under max I will start to get some flow around the FP
about 1/2 grain under max I get primer flow and shear (or with factory hot ammo) ( example Hornady book max for 180 xtp is 14.9 of No.9, at 14.5 I get primer flow and shear)
with the grizzly factory 200 WFN factory ammo (measured 8.5gr longshot from a pulldown) I get the same flow and shear
with "hot" 140 barnes tac-xp / 11.0gr of power pistol I get the same flow/shear issue 
so you can see it does not seem to be a powder or bullet issue as it seems to happen with all "hot" loads regardless of bullet or powder

here are my thoughts,

#1--try a lighter weight FP spring to see if I can keep the FP in the channel a micro second longer to prevent primer flow (but this could bring on slam fires with the heavy slide and 20 pound recoil spring)

#2-- try to buy an oversize 9mm firing pin (.075") and reduce the diameter to .001" under the size of my FP channel to reduce flow/shear issues

#3-- try a heavier recoil spring to try to keep the slide in battery just a micro second longer

#4 --try a heavier hammer/main spring to keep the slide in battery a micro second longer
 
I know though that each change can create secondary issues if not careful

#5 shadow stated that my timing (link length) might be wrong if my FP strike is off center as the barrel might be over-caming or not fully locking--- but I would think that if the gun was "hand-fitted" at RIA they would have installed the correct barrel link length at the factory-- I can eyeball the link length when I get home later to see how it looks in relation to the lower barrel lug/ramp

#6-- send it back to RIA to have them look at it is my last resort due to the shipping hassle and time frame

changing springs is cheap and easy and can be changed back with no warranty issues, not sure I want to mess with link length without having RIA look at it first as it can cause some real issues if the wrong length is installed (broken upper lugs or link or link pin or not fully into battery)

any 1911 smiths here with suggestions ? or people that have run into the same issues with solid resolve ?

Pic below is from the flow/shear issue with "hot" loads


« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:31:02 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 09:34:28 AM »
you can see in this picture the progression of primer flow with the 140 grain tac-xp bullets --right side row of 3 is 9.5 grains of power pistol, 2nd from right is 10.0, then 10.5, and finally 11.0 where it shows some flow and shear ( though not as bad as with the 200wfn grizzly factory ammo)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:36:12 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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The_Shadow

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 10:27:34 AM »
We have communicated via the PM's, but here is another test to see about the off center primer strike.
Mark a casing with a line from the primer to the side of casing.  Orient this line to be on the top as the cartridge sits in the magazine, the recovered casing should show which way the strike is oriented in relation to the cartridge position. 
Not sure if the off center is up and down or left to right.  However looking at the primers and the smear, it appears the firing pin strike to be lower of center on the primer and this seems to indicate the barrel is not as high in the slide as it should be...

If that is the problem it may explain why you are seeing the early tilting of the barrel to cause the smear...

Just trying to get a handle on what is going on... :-[

The "10mm" I'm Packin', Has The Bullets Wackin', Smakin' & The Slide is Rackin' & Jackin'!
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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 10:28:43 AM »
Thanks, I'll have to check that next time out.
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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sqlbullet

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 10:46:44 AM »
All my primers in all my 10mm guns flow a bit like that.

Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 10:48:48 AM »
Good to know, maybe it's just normal?

Anyone have a ria that has a "non-centered" pin strike like mine?
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 11:52:26 AM »
quick update with spring specs:

my pistol comes with a 20 pound recoil spring for a 5" slide so I could go heavier

my pistol comes with a 25 pound main spring, so it's already "extra power", but I could go with a heavier rate spring to slow slide blow-back
RIA has to check with their technicians to see what rate spring is used for the firing pin return spring ( I'm betting it's the "heavy" spring though) -- so I may be able to try a standard weight one

or just leave it alone and shot it--- I'm probably just over thinking it --- I am trying to get some info from a local smith too on his thoughts


found 21,22,23&24 pound recoil springs from fusion/wolff
found main springs from 23,25,26,28,30&34
and found standard, xtra power and super power FP springs(no actual spring rate listed on FP return springs)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 04:26:19 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 07:45:09 PM »
So the barrel link length looks right to me, and the hood locks up tight with no play or gap
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 04:07:35 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 07:48:33 PM »
The firing pin does strike low...i dropped in a primed empty case with the Sharpe mark facing directly down and fired ...the firing pin seems to strike low but on center left to right
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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The_Shadow

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 08:47:10 PM »
Well at least you are getting to know the gun a little better as it relates to what you were experiencing...
The "10mm" I'm Packin', Has The Bullets Wackin', Smakin' & The Slide is Rackin' & Jackin'!
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Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 04:15:10 AM »
Well at least you are getting to know the gun a little better as it relates to what you were experiencing...
Yup, also learning how many diferent "styles" of 1911 parts there are....ive had 2 other 1911 style guns for years, but never dove this deep into into them to realize how different they really are...a 1911 is not a 1911 is not a 1911
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sep

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 06:52:20 AM »
I have a co-worker who has an RIA 5 inch 10mm. Don't know the model. He is sporadically getting crushed brass with two longitudinal rips in the case. The pistol will eject the ripped rounds straight back into your chest. Did this with three different types of factory loads. He emailed RIA last week, they returned his email the same day and I believe they emailed him a shipping label to send it back. I called S&W yesterday morning about a new 686 which is locking up in single action mode.  S&W emailed me a return shipping label within minutes of our conversation. Today at lunch, we are both heading to Fedex to ship our guns back to the manufacturers.

My point in telling you all this is simply to communicate you may want to contact RIA and tell them what is happening. They may be able to reassure you this is normal or send you a shipping label for them to make it right. I don't have any fired primed 10mm brass to compare with your pictures as after every range session, I deprime my spent cases in preparation for stainless steel media cleaning. So, I can't confirm whether my 1911 10mms have the same problem or not.       

sqlbullet

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 07:27:07 AM »
That crushed brass issue....the extractor isn't holding the brass tight enough for the ejector to do it's job, and as a result the brass gets crushed against the barrel hood before popping out of the way.



Your friend can probably fix this himself in about 10 minutes by watching a youtube video about extractor adjustment.

Texashogman

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 08:03:22 AM »
Exactly, if I can fix it in a few minutes with springs then I'm better off...even though ria has great customer service and they often send return shipping labels, I still have to box/send/wait/then try it again at the range...then if it's not fixed I still have to troubleshoot myself....im pretty sure ria might fix the offset primer strike issue, but pretty sure they would return the gun with the same springs and "hot load" flow/shear issue as most manufactures won't use buffalo bore, grizzly, underwood or other "hot" ammo for factory testing of a firearm. Plus what happens if it gets lost in transit? And what about the issue that it holds 16 rounds so armscorp can't legally send it back to me personally as we now have a 15 round mag cap law here so it would have to go back through an ffl with fees as I can legally own the gun, just not new mags here in CO. ..as I said, too many headaches if it's an easy spring swap to fix.
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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sqlbullet

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Re: 1911--primer flow issue
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 09:20:38 AM »
Offset primer strikes are only an issue if the primers don't go "pop", IMHO.  Same with primer flow as long as the load is in spec, there are no other signs of pressure, and you aren't seeing reliability issues.

My issue with mine is it doesn't run reliably.  Granted I have only put two magazines through it, but in 32 rounds I had at least fifteen 3-point jams.  Gonna look at the extractor and dress it up and try again.  If it still won't run, I will send it back to RIA.