Author Topic: Issue/duty  (Read 1879 times)

will965

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Issue/duty
« on: November 29, 2016, 09:34:14 AM »
Gents,

If you guys were going to issue a 10 millimeter round for a standard, stock Glock model 20 or 29, what round would you use.. now here's the catch, it has to be a FACTORY round. No reloads...I like underwood 180 or 200g  XTPs...what says the rogues gallery? ?? Maybe the new sig stuff?

sqlbullet

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 12:54:23 PM »
Silvertips.

Ubiquitous, good ballistics, manageable for most people.

The problem with Underwood in an issue environment is without a lot of practice ammo at the 600-800 lbs ft power level is not controllable out of a Glock 20, and double that for a Glock 29.

Unless you are going to have 250 rounds per month of required training, the rank and file just aren't going to have the needed proficiency.

will965

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 01:57:36 PM »
I agree, I shoot the 200s from underwood out of my g40 and it's a solid round , you know your shooting a banger ....Silvertip listed at 1290 FPS is impressive. ...

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 06:23:05 PM »
From what I've learned so far.... If it has to be a round every hand can handle, I'd say Hornady Custom 155 or 180 XTP.
If you can't shoot minute of bad guy, and get faced with a gun fight, spend your last minutes Praying,Begging, Running or all 3

will965

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 07:28:37 PM »
I just looked at Buffalo Bores website they actually have a tactical low flash low recoil round it's a 180 grain doing about 1200 feet per second that might do the trick.. Haven't shot any but I might order some just to check it out

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 01:45:55 PM »
I agree the Silvertips would be decent. As Sqlbullet says, most LE officers while proficient, aren't firearms experts.

The Hornady 180 XTP might be okay too.

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 04:52:45 PM »
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.
If you can't shoot minute of bad guy, and get faced with a gun fight, spend your last minutes Praying,Begging, Running or all 3

tommac919

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 06:15:59 PM »
Most LEO use in any round ( from my experience ) has been a HP type...

The only one I've used that has been  good for repeatable accurate hits for the AVERAGE shooter falls into the Silver Tip range.  A warm level load but not overly snappy so secondary hits will be in the 8" circle.

But as with all things... Opinions are like as-holes and everyone has one.

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 06:41:10 PM »
Tom,
The Hornady Critical Duty comes in at 1070-1080 in a Glock 29 (3.78" barrel)  if you want to check them out. Follow ups should be good. Silvertips are 1150-1160 from a Glock 20 (4.60" barrel)  I believe it was.
If you can't shoot minute of bad guy, and get faced with a gun fight, spend your last minutes Praying,Begging, Running or all 3

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 03:22:36 AM »
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.

We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Though, now that I recall, the Silvertip does have a lot of muzzle flash. Maybe better to stick with the Hornady 180 or even 155 grain XTP.

tommac919

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 05:38:15 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)
 Most of the LEOs I use to work with only went to the range once a year for qualifying.  And their scores showed it !  Prob less than 5% would go on a regular basis or a couple times a month even tho you could shoot for free.

But, What ever round is used, it has to be in the warm range but not underwood level
A hard snappy round would have made multi hits harder and training  ( later ) was based on multi shots till the BG stopped.

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 10:39:18 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)


Yes exactly.

BEEMER!

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2016, 10:50:31 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)


Yes exactly.

The 40 S&W could also be built on a 9mm frame which is better suited to the smaller male Officers and also the female Officers which is a major plus.

SgtB802

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 10:24:10 PM »
Well a topic I'm versed in as I'm a retired disabled police officer!!!! I was also the head weapons and ammunition guru in the dept also so anyways here's my 2 cents. No on underwood no on buffalo bore the power level is way to high and with over penetration I don't like them for self defense against 2 legged critters. Now with that said I don't think a 40 smith load is acceptable either as I despise the 40 S&W. Now I do carry a glock 29 now that I'm retired and have nothing but praise for the sig v crown 180 grain I also like the old win silver tip. Both of these are modest to a point but are hotter that the 40. The 10mm is my favorite round but you can get to much sugar for a nickel in cases if you are not careful and striking a innocent bystander is NOT ACCEPTABLE! So you that's why I like the sig ammo

sqlbullet

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 07:32:59 AM »
SgtB802, welcome to the forum.  I don't think I have welcomed you yet.  And thanks for your service.  I wore a badge in corrections for a couple of years while in college and know well the sacrifice a career in law enforcement means.

I think your picks are spot on!  The Sig V-Crown load would be a great choice, and I already offered my support to the Silvertip earlier in the thread.

I do gotta throw one question.  And I mean this in all seriousness.  I am NOT trying to troll you.

You comment on over-penetration being a significant factor in the selection process, both in preamble and postamble to your suggestion.  And I completely agree that collateral damage is a BAD thing.

But...

1.  Increasingly officers carry patrol rifles in locking ready mounts in the cab of the car so they are instantly accessible.  A rifle against a human target is almost always going to over-penetrate, though intermediate rounds like the 5.56 mitigate this to some extent.

2.  The old mantra is that a handgun is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have put down.  While this is more and infantry creed, I think it applies in many situations.

3.  The most contrary comment I can make is this:  Even in the best trained departments the hit rate is only 66% in daylight shootings.  And a miss is definitely the ultimate overpenetration.  And that drops rapidly as lighting decreases to levels where most officer involved shootings actually occur.  In fact, the average hit rate when a police officer discharges his gun in the line of duty is between 15% and 25%1.

While I agree that the issue of terminal performance and collateral damage can't be ignored, especially in the legal realities of today.  But, are they emphasized?

I am genuinely interested in your thoughts given your background.




1.  "Officer-Involved Shootings:  What We Didn't Know Has Hurt Us", Thomas J. Aveni, M.S., The Police Policy Studies Council http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf