Author Topic: Issue/duty  (Read 2196 times)

will965

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Issue/duty
« on: November 29, 2016, 09:34:14 AM »
Gents,

If you guys were going to issue a 10 millimeter round for a standard, stock Glock model 20 or 29, what round would you use.. now here's the catch, it has to be a FACTORY round. No reloads...I like underwood 180 or 200g  XTPs...what says the rogues gallery? ?? Maybe the new sig stuff?

sqlbullet

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 12:54:23 PM »
Silvertips.

Ubiquitous, good ballistics, manageable for most people.

The problem with Underwood in an issue environment is without a lot of practice ammo at the 600-800 lbs ft power level is not controllable out of a Glock 20, and double that for a Glock 29.

Unless you are going to have 250 rounds per month of required training, the rank and file just aren't going to have the needed proficiency.

will965

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 01:57:36 PM »
I agree, I shoot the 200s from underwood out of my g40 and it's a solid round , you know your shooting a banger ....Silvertip listed at 1290 FPS is impressive. ...

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 06:23:05 PM »
From what I've learned so far.... If it has to be a round every hand can handle, I'd say Hornady Custom 155 or 180 XTP.
The 10mm Auto, created by Zeus, replaced Thor's hammer, perfected by Jeff Cooper, and endorsed by Larry Vickers AND the Nuge! It exudes awesome! :D

will965

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 07:28:37 PM »
I just looked at Buffalo Bores website they actually have a tactical low flash low recoil round it's a 180 grain doing about 1200 feet per second that might do the trick.. Haven't shot any but I might order some just to check it out

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 01:45:55 PM »
I agree the Silvertips would be decent. As Sqlbullet says, most LE officers while proficient, aren't firearms experts.

The Hornady 180 XTP might be okay too.

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 04:52:45 PM »
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.
The 10mm Auto, created by Zeus, replaced Thor's hammer, perfected by Jeff Cooper, and endorsed by Larry Vickers AND the Nuge! It exudes awesome! :D

tommac919

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 06:15:59 PM »
Most LEO use in any round ( from my experience ) has been a HP type...

The only one I've used that has been  good for repeatable accurate hits for the AVERAGE shooter falls into the Silver Tip range.  A warm level load but not overly snappy so secondary hits will be in the 8" circle.

But as with all things... Opinions are like as-holes and everyone has one.

Overkill338

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 06:41:10 PM »
Tom,
The Hornady Critical Duty comes in at 1070-1080 in a Glock 29 (3.78" barrel)  if you want to check them out. Follow ups should be good. Silvertips are 1150-1160 from a Glock 20 (4.60" barrel)  I believe it was.
The 10mm Auto, created by Zeus, replaced Thor's hammer, perfected by Jeff Cooper, and endorsed by Larry Vickers AND the Nuge! It exudes awesome! :D

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 03:22:36 AM »
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.

We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Though, now that I recall, the Silvertip does have a lot of muzzle flash. Maybe better to stick with the Hornady 180 or even 155 grain XTP.

tommac919

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 05:38:15 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)
 Most of the LEOs I use to work with only went to the range once a year for qualifying.  And their scores showed it !  Prob less than 5% would go on a regular basis or a couple times a month even tho you could shoot for free.

But, What ever round is used, it has to be in the warm range but not underwood level
A hard snappy round would have made multi hits harder and training  ( later ) was based on multi shots till the BG stopped.

4949shooter

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 10:39:18 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)


Yes exactly.

BEEMER!

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2016, 10:50:31 AM »
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.

Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ?  :)


Yes exactly.

The 40 S&W could also be built on a 9mm frame which is better suited to the smaller male Officers and also the female Officers which is a major plus.

SgtB802

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 10:24:10 PM »
Well a topic I'm versed in as I'm a retired disabled police officer!!!! I was also the head weapons and ammunition guru in the dept also so anyways here's my 2 cents. No on underwood no on buffalo bore the power level is way to high and with over penetration I don't like them for self defense against 2 legged critters. Now with that said I don't think a 40 smith load is acceptable either as I despise the 40 S&W. Now I do carry a glock 29 now that I'm retired and have nothing but praise for the sig v crown 180 grain I also like the old win silver tip. Both of these are modest to a point but are hotter that the 40. The 10mm is my favorite round but you can get to much sugar for a nickel in cases if you are not careful and striking a innocent bystander is NOT ACCEPTABLE! So you that's why I like the sig ammo

sqlbullet

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Re: Issue/duty
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 07:32:59 AM »
SgtB802, welcome to the forum.  I don't think I have welcomed you yet.  And thanks for your service.  I wore a badge in corrections for a couple of years while in college and know well the sacrifice a career in law enforcement means.

I think your picks are spot on!  The Sig V-Crown load would be a great choice, and I already offered my support to the Silvertip earlier in the thread.

I do gotta throw one question.  And I mean this in all seriousness.  I am NOT trying to troll you.

You comment on over-penetration being a significant factor in the selection process, both in preamble and postamble to your suggestion.  And I completely agree that collateral damage is a BAD thing.

But...

1.  Increasingly officers carry patrol rifles in locking ready mounts in the cab of the car so they are instantly accessible.  A rifle against a human target is almost always going to over-penetrate, though intermediate rounds like the 5.56 mitigate this to some extent.

2.  The old mantra is that a handgun is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have put down.  While this is more and infantry creed, I think it applies in many situations.

3.  The most contrary comment I can make is this:  Even in the best trained departments the hit rate is only 66% in daylight shootings.  And a miss is definitely the ultimate overpenetration.  And that drops rapidly as lighting decreases to levels where most officer involved shootings actually occur.  In fact, the average hit rate when a police officer discharges his gun in the line of duty is between 15% and 25%1.

While I agree that the issue of terminal performance and collateral damage can't be ignored, especially in the legal realities of today.  But, are they emphasized?

I am genuinely interested in your thoughts given your background.




1.  "Officer-Involved Shootings:  What We Didn't Know Has Hurt Us", Thomas J. Aveni, M.S., The Police Policy Studies Council http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf