Author Topic: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...  (Read 3459 times)

Captain O

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I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« on: December 18, 2015, 09:34:52 PM »
I want to throw this out for those that are familiar with the "warmer" versions of the, wait for it... .32 ACP. Never mind of how "underpowered" shooters declare and howl derisively regarding the cartridge. I shoot two auto pistols chambered for the round and enjoy them immensely. The Crvena Zastava Model 70 (Tokarev type), a European police "turn in" is my favorite!  :) The pistol operates flawlessly and accurately! (Say what you will, but I prefer the .32 ACP due to it's ability to penetrate better than the .380 and generates less recoil).

By thunder, I can empty a magazine far more quickly (and accurately) than I can with my Kel-Tec P11 9mm. Placing the 73 grain Fiocchi FMJ is easy and fast! Regardless of what anyone cares to say, the ability to place a magazine full of these little "nasties" has the penetration to "take the wind out of anyone's sails".

The Fiocchi lads are potent, yet affordable. I have been considering buying some Buffalo Bore (yes, I have looked into them their offerings and the cost therof). These "top the list" when it comes to PD ammunition. With this caliber, penetration is paramount! I'm not too concerned with overpenetration, because what concerns me is the ability to penetrate the sternum, nasal/sinus cartilage and the facial bones. (I tend to shoot for the eyes, nose and mouth, secondly, I aim for the throat).

Any additional information for defensive loads would be appreciated.

 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 03:41:29 PM by Captain O »
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2015, 01:53:34 PM »
I don't know how to respond to the overwhelming number of responses.  :'(

Captain O
Captain O

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Intercooler

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2015, 02:14:52 PM »
Go for it!

sqlbullet

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2015, 02:23:49 PM »
I have no flak for you.  I you shoot a 32 well, great.  I don't have one, so I really don't have much input.

One thing about niche forums, they cater to niche guys.  Many of us here have lots of handguns, all in 10mm

Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2015, 03:40:44 PM »
Buffalo Bore puts out a 75-grain +p load for the cartridge. The sternum and skull are the primary barriers that are encountered by the load. For the most part, I have thought this through, but posted this because of the potential for new developments.

Makes sense, doesn't it?
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2015, 07:37:21 PM »
Gentlemen: What you must understand is that the .32 ACP is quite effective when the bullets are properly placed. Low recoil and accuracy are the "long suit" of the cartridge. The penetration of the .32 is superior to that of the .380. (Sectional density and all of this has been mentioned beforehand). This makes the all-steel .32 ACP a nasty BUG.

From personal experience, I have whipped out my little Zastava Model 70 and planted six (6) FMJ bullets right where desired. (That's the objective, isn't it)? 75-grain bullets smoking along at 1150 fps and 220 fpe from a 3" barrel makes for great penetration.

So many people rail against the "little .32" were using "mainstream" US ammunition delivering 129 fpe. No wonder they can't "make the trip".
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2015, 08:03:37 PM »
After watching a "test run" from of BB's 75 grain HCFN in .32 ACP from a Kel-Tec P32 (not mine) after penetrating 16 layers of denim, it penetrated 14.5"+ and still left the Sim Tec gel block! The bullet wasn't recovered, but something tells me that this the bullet to use in my Serbian Zastava Model 70 when "the feces strikes the rotating air motivator". If you look up the video, you can take this endorsement for what it's worth.

It worked for me!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 09:31:59 PM by Captain O »
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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sqlbullet

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 05:54:01 PM »
Hard cast flat nose rounds are known for penetration.  I put a 200 grain 10mm through eleven jugs of water and didn't recover the slug.

Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 06:51:38 PM »
Hard cast flat nose rounds are known for penetration.  I put a 200 grain 10mm through eleven jugs of water and didn't recover the slug.

This is the way to go with both .32 and .380 ACP. Shot placement and penetration are what "feed the bulldog". What many fail to understand is that a smallbore can be made to perform well when applied correctly. Once you decend into the smaller calibers, control is far easier and shot placement enhanced. Peripheral shots are less debilatating. Multiple shots in a small area are easier to place, and penetration is the imperative.
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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REDLINE

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2015, 02:09:59 AM »
What many fail to understand is that a smallbore can be made to perform well...

That assumes you're okay with a non expanding projectile.  Within the general context of this discussion I am NOT okay with non expanding projectiles if I have a choice.  That is where the whole premise falls short for me.  So all in all I couldn't disagree more.  But to each there own.
Gun Control?  Oh yes, the theory that becoming a victim is somehow morally superior to defending yourself & your family.  Makes perfect sense.

sqlbullet

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2015, 08:26:10 AM »
Captain, here comes the flak you were looking for!

I gotta go with Redline here.

I have no problem with someone choosing a small bore.  It does have some advantages, key being less recoil.  This can make it much easier to place shots well in controlled circumstances.

I also agree they can perform well*.  The * is because "well" in this context is a relative term.  They can penetrate as well as any other bullet.  Penetration is simply a function of sectional density and velocity, assuming no expansion.

That said, if we both shoot a hog through and through the vitals, one with a 10mm WFN and one with a 32 cal WFN of similar sectional density and velocity, then the hog shot with the 10mm is going down first.  This is because the .400 bullet will make bigger bleed holes than the 32 caliber bullet.  The only way for it to have parity is a CNS shot, which is hard to make under the best of circumstances.

But that isn't the only problem you have with a 32 caliber handgun cartridge.  In order to get the sectional density of a 200 grain 10mm, you would need a 120 grain .312" projectile.  A 327 Federal Magnum will get you in the ballpark, with comparable velocity from a "4.6"** barrel, but a 32 ACP won't even get close. 

In fact, the 75 grain Buffalo Bore load you reference would have the sectional density of a 125 grain 10mm slug.  Imagine that slug moving only 1100 fps.  The 10mm can push a 135 grain slug to 1600 fps.

And we all uniformly agree we carry pistols because carrying rifles is impractical.  Handguns don't perform adequately for proper defense, and are only used as a last ditch.

So, I agree that a small bore can perform well when properly applied.  A 32 ACP is not that application.  A 327 federal magnum starts to get there, but all other things equal, I would take a 7.62X39 in that sectional density.


Notes:
** The 327 federal magnum is reported to make 1300 fps from a 3-1/16" barrel on Wikipedia.  But, this is a revolver which does not include the length of the chamber in the barrel length measurement.  In auto loading pistols the chamber is considered part of the barrel length measurement.  The 327 federal has a COAL of 1.47".  This makes a 3.0625" barrel + 1.47" chamber revolver on par with a 4.6" auto as far as internal ballistics length.

Captain O

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2015, 10:18:28 AM »
I understand all of these statements and concur. I like the .327 Federal Magnum. I employ the .32 ACP as a "take out the garbage" gun. It also acts as a deep concealment piece. Buffalo Bore increases the effectiveness of the .32 ACP by pushing the pressure envelope of it's design perameters.

I have no delusions about the cartridge, but it beats the .22 long rifle, .25 ACP,  (both amazingly equal in short-barreled handguns) and harsh language. The 7.62 X 25 and .327 Federal are of comparative interest, yet, AFAIK,  I would give the nod to the .327 Federal because of both sectional density and bullet weight.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 11:05:05 PM by Captain O »
Captain O

"The Administration of Justice should be tempered by mercy, but mercy should never interfere with the true Administration of Justice".- Captain O

"Living well is the best revenge". - George Herbert

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REDLINE

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 05:54:13 AM »
I employ the .32 ACP as a "take out the garbage" gun. It also acts as a deep concealment piece.
Some years back I would have found it hard to disagree with these 2 points even though I would have opted for a 380.  But since the advent of the micro-9mm platforms I now can't agree with that either.  And yes the 32ACP recoil will be more controllable but for me the 9mm, even in +P format in a micro-9 platform, is not uncontrollable enough for me to care.

In keeping with the .312" bullet diameter no doubt the 327 Federal Magnum is a plenty capable menace, but it requires a revolver which doesn't interest me either.  But to each their own.
Gun Control?  Oh yes, the theory that becoming a victim is somehow morally superior to defending yourself & your family.  Makes perfect sense.

sqlbullet

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 07:30:26 AM »
If I am going to go outside, I either carry a Glock 20 or put on clothes enough to strap on a Glock 29.

My daughter has an early morning class before high school that starts at 6:00.  I throw on sweats and just drop the Glock 20 in the center console.

Single point sling on an AR makes it easy to keep my hands free when I take out the garbage :P

Captain_Witness

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Re: I know I'll get plenty of "flak" for this, but...
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 08:15:45 AM »
Three points..

1) While you are shooting a hopped up assailant with those little pills, he may be shooting you with a .40.. Personally I want an attacker down, NOW

2) Extremely limited capacity (unless you are carrying a Scorpion) means you are very poorly prepared for mass attack (Which I have faced 3 times)

3) Bullet tech for the .32 is (as far as I'm aware) still in the stone age. Like the .380 the .32 lacks the energy to both penetrate and expand a conventional HP

I won't carry less than a high capacity 9MM +P with several reloads, and it's been years since I did that.. even my BUG is a KAHR .45
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:17:19 AM by Captain_Witness »
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