Author Topic: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC  (Read 2700 times)

4949shooter

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2017, 05:55:42 AM »
Okay thanks. Yes it is a little hard to see, but I think I can tell what you are getting at. Perhaps there is some primer "flow" going on.

Agree this is not a good sign.

Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2017, 06:22:09 AM »
Ok, popped it out--- it is not pierced, BUT the firing pin strike no longer has an indent- it is totally flat. The primer pocket was noticeably looser than other brass but still had ok tension, you could probably load the brass 1 more time at this level then loose the primer pocket (maybe)

As for the brass expansion, the base/head expansion was at .4285, and the bulge measured .4295".

As far as the gold on the primer cup, I guess the silver colored cup is actually a gold colored metal that just has a silver color  plating, and it has removed the silver plating. (New one for me)

All this was shot in 81degree weather at 6500msl for reference.

Here are 2 more primer pics...1st is a close up of the grizzly primer...2nd are my normal primers I'm used to.

I guess maybe this ammo is safe? But it is definitely very high pressure... too hot outside, piece of dirt in your chamber, not fully supported barrel and you may have problems with this ammo.

Anyone else ever had primers look like this?
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4949shooter

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2017, 06:26:30 AM »
I agree there is some primer flow going on. I'm not sure if it is completely safe to shoot.

From what you are saying, I would agree to stay away from it as you say you are. Better safe than sorry!

The_Shadow

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2017, 08:10:48 AM »
OK, here is what could be happening, If those were loaded with LongShot powder ( if I recall was 8.5 grains from your sample).  Those bullets have a good amount of bearing surface, but also didn't have any lube and only the copper gas check.
With the longer barrel, the pressure could be pushing the cups back out as the casing slams back against the breech face.  Could even be thin primer cups.
One thing the watch for is those tiny bits of metal from the primers can get inside the firing pin channel and that fouling can cause restricted firing pin movement leading to light strikes or even no primer hits.

When the action unlocks a little early, if the firing pin is still protruding, it can leave a wipe mark as the barrel drops from battery.
The smear you are showing seems to be pushing the cup back out, which could also be pushing the firing pin back as well.

This seems to be a timing issue to when the action is unlocking more so than a overpressure event.

How deep is the chamber cut, short casings, may allow case movement forward on the primer strike vs. the actual hold on the case rim of your extractor?  If there is some slop that could that could explain case slamming against the breech face.

All in all when we play near the upper end, it can show things about the firearm and its timing when its limits are reached...
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Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2017, 09:01:45 AM »
Ahh, yes....starline/grizzly fired case measures .977", resized measures .983" ... I only have new star line brass for my other loads and they measure .988" new....max saami brass length is .992" so it looks like a brass length issue

Good catch shadow...probably still means it's truly a max load, I wonder if they used some sort of lube if it would reduce the pressures at all.

By the way, I already removed the firing pin and extractor yesterday to check for brass or other issues-- was fine
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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The_Shadow

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2017, 11:15:44 AM »
What about a Flat Bottom Firing Pin Stop?  Not sure how the RIA's are set up with regards to the FPS...

Quote
Slightly oversize, this rugged, tool steel firing pin stop will prevent excessive extractor movement and is left square on the bottom to help tune your slide's recoil to your preference. Use a small bevel on the face of the stop for heavier loads, more bevel if you tend to shoot lighter loads.
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Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2017, 12:29:38 PM »
What about a Flat Bottom Firing Pin Stop?  Not sure how the RIA's are set up with regards to the FPS...

Quote
Slightly oversize, this rugged, tool steel firing pin stop will prevent excessive extractor movement and is left square on the bottom to help tune your slide's recoil to your preference. Use a small bevel on the face of the stop for heavier loads, more bevel if you tend to shoot lighter loads.
Actually it has quite a bit of radius to it...since my pistol has the rear target sight, do they make a flat top version of It? Or would I need to trim the top also?

K, see they have one with the "rear sight cut" profile in 45....but they also have a 9/38/40 version , what is the difference? --- figured it out, the 38/9/40/10 have more clearance for the ejector than the 45 version does. ...got one on order, gonna play with it to see what it does for me.



« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:00:36 PM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2017, 06:35:58 PM »
Well, the new egw fps does help felt recoil and calms down the "to the moon" ejection...but does not help the primers, hand fitted and installed the egw fps on Thursday night ---shot 2 rounds to check function today.  Felt recoil was reduced, and brass only ejected about 1/2 as far, but primers still look the same as before with the brass color coming through the silver cup. -- still getting the primer flow issue
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:03:27 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2017, 05:42:33 AM »
We'll, more progress with good results!!

In addition to the egw flat fps, I swapped a 26 pound main spring (25 pound is stock for my gun),it seems to reduce recoil just a bit, I could go higher but I don't want to increase the trigger pull weight too much.

 I also ordered an oversize firing pin and custom fit it to .001" under the fp hole diameter , the new fitted to is now .07155" (looks like the fp hole is a bit over sized)

I also bought a 22 pound recoil spring to test and it seems to help reduce a bit of recoil also

All of the above combined together has helped not only the felt recoil, but I shot 1/2 a dozen more of the grizzly 200wfn ammo, and 5 of the 6 now show normal primer strikes with no "gold"  strike...1 still showed the gold but I think maybe they are using softer primers.

ALSO!! As a bonus, I gained over 50 fps on the ammo!!! It was about 1275 iirc, with the fps/26 lb main spring/osfp I was clocking 1290, when I swapped in the 22 pound recoil spring it bumped to 1340fps

The fps increase wss across the board--- my -plinking ammo used to be 1280, now its 1330....and my 180 xtp loads are now up to 1400fps .....nice side effect due to keeping the slide closed longer I'm getting more velocity !!!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 05:55:36 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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sqlbullet

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2017, 08:38:25 AM »
The velocity change is more likely a change in temperature, humidity or barametric pressure than a change in the recoil spring set up.  I say this for two reasons.

1.  If a change to the gun were responsible, then the change would have more affect on higher impulse ammo than lower impulse ammo.

and

2.  The unlock timing in a 1911 is dependent pretty much exlusively on link and link pin.  The puny force difference of a 16 lb spring versus a 24 lb spring seems like alot to our hands when racking the slide, but compared to the force of firing the gun, it really is just fractions of a percent.  Check out 1911tuners writings on the issue at m1911.org.

But, I am glad you are happy with the modifications.  1911's beg to be hotrodded kinda chevy small blocks and ford FE blocks.

Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2017, 07:30:31 PM »
Seems like a huge jump in velocity for some humidity or barro pressure...temp this time was actually about 5 degrees less than last time to the range

I know that the link has the most effect on timing, but as proof that springs do help....my gun was set up totally stock last time and the grizzly ammo was showing 1275fps.
This time I went to the range with the egw fps and new main spring installed, my crony was showing 1290 on 3 shots, I swapped out the recoil spring for the 22 pound one (takes just a minute or 2) and the next 3 shots showed 1340fps (give or take)----how else would you explain the jump in velocity in just a few minutes?


« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:30:18 AM by Texashogman »
RIA 52000, PVL chest holster, Montana 200WFN

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sqlbullet

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2017, 06:58:23 AM »
Just cause I don't know the actual cause does not automatically make your one proposed explanation "the one".

Here is where I get stuck...In order for the spring, and any associated delay in unlock to be the reason, then we would have to be implying that the gun was previously unlocking while there was still significant pressure in the bore.  Since the previous loads were not losing case heads, as they would even if the pressure was at 5,000 psi when the gun unlocked, then we can assume that in both cases the gun unlocked after the bullet left the barrel.

Three shots is not a statistically significant group, so this could be just the three fastest of a 10 shot string and the three slowest of the 10 shot string.

Gotta run catch a plane, but this is an interesting topic.  Gotta think about it some more, and maybe do some math on the 24 hour flight I am about to get on.

Texashogman

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2017, 09:35:42 AM »
I agree that 3 shots does not prove, but with the 20 pound spring I got 1290, 1293, and 1297 fps
with the 22 pound spring I got 1337, 1340, and 1347fps

would seem odd that I just happened to get 3 in a row for each test

I also had an increase in my hand loads with the same charge from last time to this time-- with the montana 200wfn last time with 12.4gr of no.9 I got 1290 fps, this time I was at 1360 fps
last time with the 12.4 grain load with the montana bullet I shot 4 or 5 and was averaging 1290 with the stock gun -- this time with the flat bottom FPS, 26pound main spring and 22 pound recoil spring I shot 25 rounds and was averaging 1360fps --seems like a pretty good test number for those

maybe there was some other mystery at play, next time to the range I'll try them again to see
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NapalmCheese

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2017, 05:30:39 PM »
I bought some of this stuff at Sportsman's on my way to Wyoming. I liked the bullet better than what is loaded in the Underwood ammo as I think the meplat is better designed. I shot it through a stock Glock 29 but did not have a chrono. The brass flew a considerable ways, the extractor left pretty deep gouges in most of the brass, some of the brass was smiled some was not, and the bore was quite leaded after 14 rounds. I found the ammo to be accurate enough for my needs and not terribly difficult to shoot (though definitely stout). I carried it in bear country for 10 days in lieu of my underwood ammo I normally carry (which doesn't seem to lead my bore). The leading was easily taken care of with a bore snake, I think the polygonal rifling is easier to clean lead out of than normal lands and grooves rifling.

https://imgur.com/a/ZTP68

sqlbullet

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Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2017, 06:54:32 AM »
I shoot cast bullets in my Glock factory barrels, but only bullets I cast.  Glock groove diameter is always on the large side, and as a result factory ammo which is typically sized .401" leads the bore badly.  Generally I powder coat anymore, but if loading lead I use a medium soft lube and size .403"