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10mm Ammuntion => Factory 10mm ammo => Topic started by: Texashogman on July 14, 2017, 06:59:56 AM

Title: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 14, 2017, 06:59:56 AM
so I was at Sportsmans Warehouse yesterday and was just looking at any 10mm that might be available (as they usually are out of stock of all 10mm)

I stumbled upon a bnox of Grizzly 200gr WFNGC box of 20 bullets for $14.99

they use starline brass and the Sportsmans website shows 1250fps (an I'm assuming that is from a 5" test barrel) http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Grizzly-Handgun-Ammo/productDetail/Handgun-Ammunition/prod99999043746/cat100130

I looked on Grizzly's website this morning and they have a 155, 180, and 200 grain JHP  ( which look to be Hornady XTP bullets ) and a 200gr FMJFP ----BUT no 200gr WFN load listed on their website


anyone know if the 200wfn load is either a new load or an old discontinued load????   from looking at their cast bullets for sale, they say they use LBT molds, Beratooth bullets has a 200gr WFNGC and he uses an LBT mold also, so I'm guessing it's the same bullet

Grizzly does not say what the hardness of this WFN is anywhere


anyone have any info on this load???? seems like it is definitely a "full power" load as it's speed at 1250 seems really hot


just for S&G I bought a box to see how they shoot and I will chrony them too from my 6" RIA when I get a chance, but it may be several  weeks till I can get back to the range
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: sqlbullet on July 14, 2017, 07:23:37 AM
I would guess it is an old load.  Powder coat is all the rage these days.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 14, 2017, 07:36:42 AM
I would guess it is an old load.  Powder coat is all the rage these days.

funny I can't find anything, anywhere on the net about it, I would think if it was old then someone-somewhere would have some sort of internet info on it (test info etc)

if it was new, you would think Grizzly would have info it on their website

as far as 10mm 200 or 220 WFN "hard cast"(BHN 20 or more) hunting bullet with PC , I haven't seen anyone that sells them yet, pb and GC yes, but coated, no (though I may be missing a source I haven't found yet) ---  Montanna is running a special test batch for me right now that are hi-tek coated though ---several sources sell plain base and gas check 200gr WFN of BHN 20-22 though

I wish I could find a 200gr WFN with an 80% or better meaplat with just a bit softer BHN than 20-22 (something like 16-18)--- seems like all the 16 BHN 200gr are more of a TC style than WFN ---just doesn't make sense to me to buy all of the casting equipment when It would take me years to recoup my costs if ever (as I have no "free" source of lead so I have to buy that too)


I'm going to shoot an e-mail to Grizzly to see if they have any info on it
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: sqlbullet on July 14, 2017, 09:31:32 AM
Buy a few bullets and anneal them and see if the hardness changes.

If not, they are linotype.

But, chances are they are water dropped lead with about 3% antimony and 1-2% tin.  If so, heating them to 400° for an hour and letting them air-cool will give you bullets that are a 10-11 BHN.  For a 17 BHN, heat them to that temp, then dump them in 80-100° water.  They should come out hardened some, but not a full 22 BHN.

But, be aware, that they will continue to harden with time.  I tested batches 24 months later that started out 16-17 BHN and they were 20-22 BHN after 24 months.

The only way I know of to get a bullet made from this common and cheap alloy to stabilize at 16-17 BHN is to cast it in a hot mold from 700-750° lead, air cool and age.    They will test 11-12 the day after casting, and will harden over 30-60 days to 15 or so.  After two years, they still are 16-17 BHN.  If you cast with lead cooler than 700° they won't get past 10-11 BHN.

Source of this is two different children's science fair projects.  The first one was on the effects of different heat treatments and the results and methodology is at the link below.  The second built on that and test the age hardness of the original test samples after 24 months, but I have not put the data online cause I am busy or lazy.

http://fellingfamily.net/isolead
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 14, 2017, 10:00:36 AM
That's on par with Underwood, I wouldn't call it "really hot"
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 14, 2017, 10:02:46 AM
I shoot 200 grainers from my G29 that are rated at 1250.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 14, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
That's on par with Underwood, I wouldn't call it "really hot"
well your chart shows them as "nuclear" loads and not "hot loads" so that would be "really hot" in my books

I would imagine they are still within saami specs, just on the max pressure side

they are probably not something I would shoot all the time, but for their purpose they are where they should be in my mind, I hope to find an accurate load around 1300 from my 6" when I get my WFN's later this month

 if the grizzly's are accurate then it would be a nice "factory" alternative for guys that don't reload and a back-up for guys that do
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 14, 2017, 10:56:12 AM
That's on par with Underwood, I wouldn't call it "really hot"
well your chart shows them as "nuclear" loads and not "hot loads" so that would be "really hot" in my books

I would imagine they are still within saami specs, just on the max pressure side

they are probably not something I would shoot all the time, but for their purpose they are where they should be in my mind, I hope to find an accurate load around 1300 from my 6" when I get my WFN's later this month

 if the grizzly's are accurate then it would be a nice "factory" alternative for guys that don't reload and a back-up for guys that do

I carry equal power loads for self protection. I carry the Nosler 200gr hollow points. Sometimes I switch it over to a 9x25 Dillon. I've always loved the 357 SIG round so the Dillon just makes me smile. 1550 fps from a 124 grain bullet from less than a 4" barrel.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 14, 2017, 11:05:22 AM
so back to the question posted--- does anyone know anything about the 200 WFNGC Grizzly Cartridge ammo?

if no one has seen any or tested any, I'm assuming it's a new offering ---- I'll test my box for speed and accuracy in a few weeks and report back
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 14, 2017, 11:14:45 AM
I'd say it's old or a sized down version of the .41's

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=CP41250&sid=ym0qwwf88ns1babf4o395d6jy6k3032h


I emailed Grizzly about them. I'll let ya know.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on July 14, 2017, 11:37:46 AM
We never had any of those Grizzly 10mm ammo cartridges with cast bullets to document...it would be nice to do a pull down documentation...However there are the DT, UW and BB that were done...

Buffalo Bore 220gr Hard Cast with Power Pistol Weight: 8.4 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1175 fps Muzzle Energy: 674 ft. lbs

Double Tap 200gr Wide Flat Nose Hard Cast Gas Checked with LongShot 8.2 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps Muzzle Energy: 750 ft. lbs

Double Tap 230gr Hard Cast with LongShot Weight: 7.2 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1120 fps Muzzle Energy: 612 ft. lbs

Underwood 200gr Hard Cast with LOVEX D037-01 11.6 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps Muzzle Energy: 694 ft. lbs
Underwood 220gr Hard Cast with LongShot Weight: 8.6 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1240 fps Muzzle Energy: 750 ft. lbs
Underwood 220gr Hard Cast(reduced) with LongShot Weight: 8.0 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1240 fps Muzzle Energy: 750 ft. lbs ???

Underwood 220gr Hard Cast with IMR800X 8.4 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps Muzzle Energy: 703 ft. lbs
Underwood 220gr Cast WFN with LongShot  8.4 grains @ Muzzle Velocity: 1237 fps Muzzle Energy: 747 ft. lbs

Title: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC pulldown
Post by: Texashogman on July 15, 2017, 07:21:25 AM
I'll have to attach pictures some other way later, as the files are too large from my phone--gotta figure out how to re-size them--I used to use Photobucket, but we all know the deal with their recent changes

Here are the details---
Grizzly Cartridge Company 10mm auto 200gr WFNGC- factory speed listed is 1250fps from unknown barrel length (I have sent a request for info to Grizzly)


*Overall length ranges from 1.243" to 1.251" (I think they are shooting for 1.250" as about 75% of them were 1.247-1.250")
*The brass case is new star-line brass with a silver colored primer-- I will note that their loading equipment is setting the primers in too hard/deep; as the edge of the primers is slightly flattened (lost it's round edge) and you can see almost a concave area near the middle of the primer where the machine is trying to press the primer too deep
*The bullet is indeed a "Hard-cast" bullet, it is very hard but I have no real way to test its hardness--it will not mark with a fingernail but it does appear to mark about the same as as 20-22bhn similar bullet with a punch
*It measures .401" just in front of the case mouth, BUT when pulled with a kinetic puller it measured .400" behind where the case mouth was crimped so it appears they are using too hard of a factory taper crimp as to deform the bullet slightly (yes it took about 10 whacks with the puller hammer to get the bullet to unseat)
*The bullet measures .640" long and appears to have 2 lube grooves with NO lube in the grooves and no crimp groove,  it does  have a gas check crimped to the base
* the meaplat is approximately .300" (give or take)
*weight of the 1 sample pulled pullet was 199.7 grains with the gas check
* charge weight of the powder was 8.5grains of what looks to be longshot powder

I do not currently have a tested MV as I have not yet shot any--when I do it will be from a 6" RIA barrel and I will report back

I have sent a request for information to Grizzly asking them what "hardness" the bullet is, what length their test barrel was, and if this is a new or old offering as it is not on their website right now.

For reference, I bought the box off the shelf at my local Sportsmans Warehouse for $14.99+tax for a box of 20
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 15, 2017, 08:03:24 AM
The reply I got from grizzly was they are on Maternity Leave.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 15, 2017, 10:14:26 AM
I downloaded an app called "Photo Resizer". It's allowed me to post here.

But sometimes you can view your pic on your phone, screenshot it, and crop it. Then post.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Overkill338 on July 17, 2017, 12:58:22 PM
even screen shot still comes up with 858KB

sorry I guess no pictures for me

Have you tried cropping or  the app I suggested?
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 17, 2017, 01:08:13 PM
Tapa talk pics finally (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/62bad34f0572dfd00b3c7fb4529cf77b.jpg)

Bullet

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/67e3d3b397a923a676e8cb220d147195.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 18, 2017, 05:33:06 AM
Pic of powder from pull down



(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/7d4b784f821cb198a2d25968fa99ec4f.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on July 18, 2017, 06:22:33 AM
Texashogman, Thanks for showing the Grizzly pull down you posted.  8)
Well, that bullet should be quite the thumper.  I see the bullet is gas checked but there is no lube in the grooves, of which the bottom groove is also the gas check base.  It hard to tell if they are using a PC (clear) but somehow I doubt that these are powder coated.  The bullet shows a medium crimp line where the taper crimp was applied.  Measuring the total cartridge and actual bullet lengths can show how much is inside the casing and how much is sticking out based on the total casing length.  This can also help if there is a feeding issue with these wide flat nose bullets with regard to tipping angles.

How much did the powder weigh?  It looks like Hodgdon LongShot, but total weight would help tell the story...
Is there a velocity shown on the box? or Have you recorded any velocity readings?
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 18, 2017, 07:06:44 AM
Texashogman, Thanks for showing the Grizzly pull down you posted.  8)
Well, that bullet should be quite the thumper.  I see the bullet is gas checked but there is no lube in the grooves, of which the bottom groove is also the gas check base.  It hard to tell if they are using a PC (clear) but somehow I doubt that these are powder coated.  The bullet shows a medium crimp line where the taper crimp was applied.  Measuring the total cartridge and actual bullet lengths can show how much is inside the casing and how much is sticking out based on the total casing length.  This can also help if there is a feeding issue with these wide flat nose bullets with regard to tipping angles.

How much did the powder weigh?  It looks like Hodgdon LongShot, but total weight would help tell the story...
Is there a velocity shown on the box? or Have you recorded any velocity readings?

I posted info in the middle of the 1st page-- 8.5 grains of powder that looks like longshot , OAL is on average 1.250" --- no lube in grooves (and no it does not appear to be clear PC'ed)--bullet length was .640" long and measured .401" diameter in front of the crimp, after the bullet was pulled via a kinetic puller the diameter inside the case was .400" as the crimp was very tight

the box from Grizzly does NOT have a velocity on it and their website does not list this ammo, but sportsman's warehouse website does say it's rated at 1250 fps

I have not shot them yet, but they seem to feed just fine when chambering with the slide lock release--- it may be a few weeks before I get to shot any though, but I will report back after
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on July 18, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I added the Grizzly 10mm 200Grain WFNGC cartridge into the Pull-Down documentations based on you findings  to preserve the history...  :D
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Rojo27 on July 18, 2017, 09:40:05 AM
Without any lube on the bullet, does that mean it will lead the barrel much more than normal? 
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on July 18, 2017, 09:58:06 AM
Personally I would prefer to have seen some lube or powder coating on them.  Lube can create some smoke, depending on the lube.  Powder coating is becoming a good choice for less fouling, however that are some coatings that have been causing barrel wear.
Depending on the fit of the gas check, it could clear out or smear leading in the bore, testing in a particular barrel will show one way or the other...
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 18, 2017, 10:05:16 AM
I added the Grizzly 10mm 200Grain WFNGC cartridge into the Pull-Down documentations based on you findings  to preserve the history...  :D
Thanks, I'll add the speed and accuracy data once I test them....i was disappointed when I pulled the bullet to find out  they have no lube in the lube grooves --- seems odd

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 18, 2017, 10:26:47 AM
Personally I would prefer to have seen some lube or powder coating on them.  Lube can create some smoke, depending on the lube.  Powder coating is becoming a good choice for less fouling, however that are some coatings that have been causing barrel wear.
Depending on the fit of the gas check, it could clear out or smear leading in the bore, testing in a particular barrel will show one way or the other...

what coatings are showing barrel wear??? I hadn't heard of this before
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on July 18, 2017, 01:38:16 PM
If I recall the black color was one of them with high calcite content.
Quote
HF black was known to be a relatively poor candidate for powder coating as it required the use of a sprayer gun to apply it... that brand and color in particular did not apply well at all through the tumbling method many hobbyist bullet casters use. Some folks did some digging and on the materials list for HF black (and no other color) they found a mild abrasive, calcite.


Another mention was PC with Barium Sulfate.

But Finding actual proof of barrel wear was a wash so far.  I also remember reading that some of these powdered paints have better scratch and chip resistance that others...

I would stay with solid color types if and when I start powder coating my own cast bullets.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: 4949shooter on July 21, 2017, 01:05:19 PM
WFNGC = Wide Flat Nose Gas Check?
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on July 21, 2017, 03:29:31 PM
WFNGC = Wide Flat Nose Gas Check?
Yes

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 05, 2017, 08:49:16 PM
Well, I tested them today--- too bad they are over pressure in my gun. I only shot 4 then gave up.
6" barrel showed 2 bullets at 1268fps, and 2 at 1289fps--- but check out the primers!!!

The 2 on the end (the 1289fps ones)seem to have just pierced the primer and the gold in the center I think is the anvil showing through the cup. I can hit 1430fps from a 180xtp with no.9 and the primers don't look anywhere near as bad as these grizzly primers do.  The other 2 are the 1268fps ones, not quite as bad but still over pressure for sure---- too close to the ragged edge for me.( edit, after removing the primers I found they are not pierced)

Also to note I had a .001" "belly" in the brass --- not good, not horrible but definitely not good.

They were really accurate too!!!

I shot 3 for a group at 10 yards--- came out as .5" center to center, then the 4th shot I adjusted slightly to see if I could hit the bull--- really accurate ammo, but too over the edge for my comfort level . (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/3774292aee98ada86dfbf3614f60bc8f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/34c1b4a0f3b534c3c79b98e85c5eb1be.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: 4949shooter on August 06, 2017, 04:13:09 AM
Those primers don't look too bad to me.

Can you show a side pic of the brass swelling?
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 06, 2017, 05:43:58 AM
Those primers don't look too bad to me.

Can you show a side pic of the brass swelling?
Try this picture....sure looks like the primers gold colored anvil sticking up through the siler colored cup to me--- I've never seen a primer do this before....ive had pierced primers in rifles before but never in pistol.
I'll go pop the primer out of one to see it better and see if I can confirm if it's pierced or not. ( after removal I found the primers have not been pierced)

The edges of the primer are still kinda round, and you can't see the "belly" with the naked eye--only by using calipers --- but Those primers scare me (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/acddd2eddd6ebddb40e9730b5e20931e.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: 4949shooter on August 06, 2017, 05:55:42 AM
Okay thanks. Yes it is a little hard to see, but I think I can tell what you are getting at. Perhaps there is some primer "flow" going on.

Agree this is not a good sign.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 06, 2017, 06:22:09 AM
Ok, popped it out--- it is not pierced, BUT the firing pin strike no longer has an indent- it is totally flat. The primer pocket was noticeably looser than other brass but still had ok tension, you could probably load the brass 1 more time at this level then loose the primer pocket (maybe)

As for the brass expansion, the base/head expansion was at .4285, and the bulge measured .4295".

As far as the gold on the primer cup, I guess the silver colored cup is actually a gold colored metal that just has a silver color  plating, and it has removed the silver plating. (New one for me)

All this was shot in 81degree weather at 6500msl for reference.

Here are 2 more primer pics...1st is a close up of the grizzly primer...2nd are my normal primers I'm used to.

I guess maybe this ammo is safe? But it is definitely very high pressure... too hot outside, piece of dirt in your chamber, not fully supported barrel and you may have problems with this ammo.

Anyone else ever had primers look like this? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/5783d34fcec96e3269ed9505da04d844.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/e62feca1edf4aebb9377bbbd208eba84.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: 4949shooter on August 06, 2017, 06:26:30 AM
I agree there is some primer flow going on. I'm not sure if it is completely safe to shoot.

From what you are saying, I would agree to stay away from it as you say you are. Better safe than sorry!
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on August 06, 2017, 08:10:48 AM
OK, here is what could be happening, If those were loaded with LongShot powder ( if I recall was 8.5 grains from your sample).  Those bullets have a good amount of bearing surface, but also didn't have any lube and only the copper gas check.
With the longer barrel, the pressure could be pushing the cups back out as the casing slams back against the breech face.  Could even be thin primer cups.
One thing the watch for is those tiny bits of metal from the primers can get inside the firing pin channel and that fouling can cause restricted firing pin movement leading to light strikes or even no primer hits.

When the action unlocks a little early, if the firing pin is still protruding, it can leave a wipe mark as the barrel drops from battery.
The smear you are showing seems to be pushing the cup back out, which could also be pushing the firing pin back as well.

This seems to be a timing issue to when the action is unlocking more so than a overpressure event.

How deep is the chamber cut, short casings, may allow case movement forward on the primer strike vs. the actual hold on the case rim of your extractor?  If there is some slop that could that could explain case slamming against the breech face.

All in all when we play near the upper end, it can show things about the firearm and its timing when its limits are reached...
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 06, 2017, 09:01:45 AM
Ahh, yes....starline/grizzly fired case measures .977", resized measures .983" ... I only have new star line brass for my other loads and they measure .988" new....max saami brass length is .992" so it looks like a brass length issue

Good catch shadow...probably still means it's truly a max load, I wonder if they used some sort of lube if it would reduce the pressures at all.

By the way, I already removed the firing pin and extractor yesterday to check for brass or other issues-- was fine
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: The_Shadow on August 06, 2017, 11:15:44 AM
What about a Flat Bottom Firing Pin Stop?  Not sure how the RIA's are set up with regards to the FPS...

Quote
Slightly oversize, this rugged, tool steel firing pin stop will prevent excessive extractor movement and is left square on the bottom to help tune your slide's recoil to your preference. Use a small bevel on the face of the stop for heavier loads, more bevel if you tend to shoot lighter loads.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 06, 2017, 12:29:38 PM
What about a Flat Bottom Firing Pin Stop?  Not sure how the RIA's are set up with regards to the FPS...

Quote
Slightly oversize, this rugged, tool steel firing pin stop will prevent excessive extractor movement and is left square on the bottom to help tune your slide's recoil to your preference. Use a small bevel on the face of the stop for heavier loads, more bevel if you tend to shoot lighter loads.
Actually it has quite a bit of radius to it...since my pistol has the rear target sight, do they make a flat top version of It? Or would I need to trim the top also?

K, see they have one with the "rear sight cut" profile in 45....but they also have a 9/38/40 version , what is the difference? --- figured it out, the 38/9/40/10 have more clearance for the ejector than the 45 version does. ...got one on order, gonna play with it to see what it does for me.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170806/39e4486b4ccac1d5899f5f042972bdd6.jpg)
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on August 13, 2017, 06:35:58 PM
Well, the new egw fps does help felt recoil and calms down the "to the moon" ejection...but does not help the primers, hand fitted and installed the egw fps on Thursday night ---shot 2 rounds to check function today.  Felt recoil was reduced, and brass only ejected about 1/2 as far, but primers still look the same as before with the brass color coming through the silver cup. -- still getting the primer flow issue
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on September 10, 2017, 05:42:33 AM
We'll, more progress with good results!!

In addition to the egw flat fps, I swapped a 26 pound main spring (25 pound is stock for my gun),it seems to reduce recoil just a bit, I could go higher but I don't want to increase the trigger pull weight too much.

 I also ordered an oversize firing pin and custom fit it to .001" under the fp hole diameter , the new fitted to is now .07155" (looks like the fp hole is a bit over sized)

I also bought a 22 pound recoil spring to test and it seems to help reduce a bit of recoil also

All of the above combined together has helped not only the felt recoil, but I shot 1/2 a dozen more of the grizzly 200wfn ammo, and 5 of the 6 now show normal primer strikes with no "gold"  strike...1 still showed the gold but I think maybe they are using softer primers.

ALSO!! As a bonus, I gained over 50 fps on the ammo!!! It was about 1275 iirc, with the fps/26 lb main spring/osfp I was clocking 1290, when I swapped in the 22 pound recoil spring it bumped to 1340fps

The fps increase wss across the board--- my -plinking ammo used to be 1280, now its 1330....and my 180 xtp loads are now up to 1400fps .....nice side effect due to keeping the slide closed longer I'm getting more velocity !!!
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: sqlbullet on September 10, 2017, 08:38:25 AM
The velocity change is more likely a change in temperature, humidity or barametric pressure than a change in the recoil spring set up.  I say this for two reasons.

1.  If a change to the gun were responsible, then the change would have more affect on higher impulse ammo than lower impulse ammo.

and

2.  The unlock timing in a 1911 is dependent pretty much exlusively on link and link pin.  The puny force difference of a 16 lb spring versus a 24 lb spring seems like alot to our hands when racking the slide, but compared to the force of firing the gun, it really is just fractions of a percent.  Check out 1911tuners writings on the issue at m1911.org.

But, I am glad you are happy with the modifications.  1911's beg to be hotrodded kinda chevy small blocks and ford FE blocks.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on September 10, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
Seems like a huge jump in velocity for some humidity or barro pressure...temp this time was actually about 5 degrees less than last time to the range

I know that the link has the most effect on timing, but as proof that springs do help....my gun was set up totally stock last time and the grizzly ammo was showing 1275fps.
This time I went to the range with the egw fps and new main spring installed, my crony was showing 1290 on 3 shots, I swapped out the recoil spring for the 22 pound one (takes just a minute or 2) and the next 3 shots showed 1340fps (give or take)----how else would you explain the jump in velocity in just a few minutes?

Also, as a test--- I clocked some known rifle ammo--- factory box says 2700fps, I usually get 2720--- I got 2825, so it seemed like conditions and crony were the same.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: sqlbullet on September 11, 2017, 06:58:23 AM
Just cause I don't know the actual cause does not automatically make your one proposed explanation "the one".

Here is where I get stuck...In order for the spring, and any associated delay in unlock to be the reason, then we would have to be implying that the gun was previously unlocking while there was still significant pressure in the bore.  Since the previous loads were not losing case heads, as they would even if the pressure was at 5,000 psi when the gun unlocked, then we can assume that in both cases the gun unlocked after the bullet left the barrel.

Three shots is not a statistically significant group, so this could be just the three fastest of a 10 shot string and the three slowest of the 10 shot string.

Gotta run catch a plane, but this is an interesting topic.  Gotta think about it some more, and maybe do some math on the 24 hour flight I am about to get on.
Title: Re: Grizzly 200gr WFNGC
Post by: Texashogman on September 11, 2017, 09:35:42 AM
I agree that 3 shots does not prove, but with the 20 pound spring I got 1290, 1293, and 1297 fps
with the 22 pound spring I got 1337, 1340, and 1347fps

would seem odd that I just happened to get 3 in a row for each test

I also had an increase in my hand loads with the same charge from last time to this time-- with the montana 200wfn last time with 12.4gr of no.9 I got 1290 fps, this time I was at 1360 fps
last time with the 12.4 grain load with the montana bullet I shot 4 or 5 and was averaging 1290 with the stock gun -- this time with the flat bottom FPS, 26pound main spring and 22 pound recoil spring I shot 25 rounds and was averaging 1360fps --seems like a pretty good test number for those

maybe there was some other mystery at play, next time to the range I'll try them again to see