Author Topic: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs  (Read 1976 times)

kreane

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I currently carry a Glock 20 loaded with Underwood 200 grain hard cast. I want to possibly switch to a Glock 21 in .45 Acp with 230 grain fmj. I don't like heavier bullet waits as i've had isses with key holing. I want to switch because I shoot the .45 slightly better and ammo is slightly easier to find. Inside of 50 yards will the .45 penetrate bears and hogs a good as 10mm? If not, how much of a difference is there. I realize that small and fast penetrates barriers better. And heavy penetrates flesh. I'm looking mainly at max penetration into bears and hogs and not anything else.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 02:13:50 PM by kreane »

The_Shadow

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 02:39:43 PM »
50 yards may be stretching things for the 45ACP...  10mm at 100 yards can still have more energy than a 45 at the muzzle!
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Hamopr

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 03:14:09 PM »
Why do you shoot the 21 better than the 20? For all practical purposes they are identical except for caliber.

FMJ isn't a good choice for hunting, you would be better with hard cast lead but as Shadow says, you don't have the energy in 45 acp. Maybe if you stepped up to 460 Rowland (still a 45 caliber bullet)?

Your 20 will likely stop keyholing by changing to a standard rifling barrel. Hickok45 did a video on Glock 20 keyholing but it was with 230 grain lead, the 200 grain didn't keyhole. The Glock barrel would not stabilize the 230's.

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Spudmeister

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2017, 05:40:31 PM »
If only life were that black and white.  Answers and questions would be easier to deal with.

There is 10mm ammo and there is 10mm ammo.  Underwood 200gr hard cast is running just as hard and fast as they can legitimately make it go.  So you get max velocity, max penetration (or something close), max recoil and blast.  It is a package deal that makes a G20 into all it can be based on your needs.  BTW... if you search around this forum you'll find some helpful info on recoil springs that may improve your shooting. 

If you want to bring the recoil & blast way down and still keep a lot of penetration you can get the Double Tap 200 gr hard cast load.  It goes  slower and if far easier to shoot well if the max loads are you issue.  There are more choices but I'm familiar with the Double Tap.  I just put some over my Chrono and it managed 1,124 fps in my OEM G20 (they claim 1,300 fps which is just silly). 

IME it will be harder to find 45 acp ammo that fits your specs.... well... I suppose Underwood would have some +P stuff that would approach your needs but if you can get that you can get good 10mm ammo.  Problem is you'll spend a lot of money and honestly end up with less gun than you have now.   At least in the US, 10mm is not hard to find. 

Good luck.

kreane

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 07:03:15 PM »
I use the 200 grain in my 20 now. I had issues with heavier loads. I want to stick with the stock barrel for reliability. I'm not hunting. I'm just using it for defense against bears and mountain lions. I shoot the 21 better because the recoil is more smooth.

4949shooter

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 07:06:13 PM »
Interesting. I fired the Doubletap 230 grain hardcast through my Gen 4 G20 without keyholing or reliability issues.

Ridgerunner665

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 07:09:27 PM »
You could use lower powered loads than Underwood in the 10mm and still be way ahead of anything the 45 will do.

Federal 180 grain Trophy Bonded for a factory option, or a reload using the Cutting Edge 190 grain solid (copper) at around 1,100 fps or so...either of those will likely closely mimic the recoil of the 45 with stout loads.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 07:14:14 PM by Ridgerunner665 »

Ridgerunner665

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 07:13:00 PM »
Hickok45 did have some trouble with tumbling in a stock Glock barrel.

Glock barrels are not very consistent sometimes, one might work fine, the next won't...it could be blamed on bullet sizing, who knows...but he certainly did have trouble with tumbling, its on his video and clearly shown.

Ridgerunner665

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2017, 07:17:22 PM »
If all you want is penetration without the headaches of shooting lead, below is the answer to all your questions...

The Cutting Edge 190 grain HG solid...this one was recovered after impacting solid ground/slate rock at 1,275 fps, penetrated 16", they would likely end to end a pretty good sized hog or average black bear...a little pricey, but they're not meant to be range ammo.




my_old_glock

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2017, 08:30:54 PM »
... Inside of 50 yards will the .45 penetrate bears and hogs a good as 10mm? If not, how much of a difference is there?

NO, 45ACP will not penetrate bears or hogs as good as 10mm. It is better than nothing, but in general 45ACP FMJ is a bad choice. I have seen several news reports of 45ACP not penetrating a pitbull's skull. I think bears and hogs are tougher.

I do not know how much difference there is. Maybe half as good.


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sep

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 08:37:34 PM »
A few years back, a homeowner on the Kenai Peninsula here in Alaska, dispatched a brown bear in his yard with a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP. Last year, a guide up here killed a brownie with a 9mm shooting Buffalo Bore hardcast lead loads. (I bet he won't do that again)

You could add a stouter recoil spring to your current Glock 21 and shoot 45 Super out of it for more horsepower but the recoil will also increase. It's pretty hard to beat the 10mm for a woods carry load in an auto pistol. 357 Sig, 40 Super, 45 Super and 460 Rowland are other options. Some more limited than others. 

If recoil is a problem, you could add some weight to your Glock 20. I put the following in my G40 to increase its weight, Thug Plug (3 oz), stainless RSA (1oz), Taylor Force brass weight (4 oz) added to the bottom of my magazine. A heavier pistol means less recoil. Conversely, if you handload, you could load some 200 grain hardcast down to a more comfortable recoil level.         

molar

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 09:59:17 AM »
Get a KKM barrel and load up some 45 super.  A 255 gr bullet at 1025+ fps  is nothing to sneeze at.

Rojo27

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 06:20:43 PM »
Bears have been killed by arrows but I for one have no interest in trying to accomplish the feat. 

I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well.  Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel. 

I've killed large wild hogs with 45acp (out of 1911) utilizing head shots (230gr fmj) and it was damned effective.  Never, ever seen 45acp bounce off the skull of even the largest boar. 

With that stipulated; today when going out into the sticks hunting wild hogs or bears are thought to be present, I slide my Glock 20 (200gr XTP or 200gr hardcast in the pipe and in magazine) into the holster on my hip EVERYTIME.  Having used both calibers, I feel more comfortable with the 10mm. 

Trapper6L

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 06:58:21 PM »
Quote
few years back, a homeowner on the Kenai Peninsula here in Alaska, dispatched a brown bear in his yard with a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP. Last year, a guide up here killed a brownie with a 9mm shooting Buffalo Bore hardcast lead loads. (I bet he won't do that again)

I read about that. The bear was less than 6 feet away when the 9mm probably went off like an M14. ;D Interesting read. It was on one the State Alaska websites. If penetration is the goal, look at the Lehigh Defense ammo. Underwood also loads some of their bullets but the bullets are barrier blind. The bullet will not recognize the hair on a bear where a HP bullet might get caught up in it and slowed enough to not perform function. The bullets are a machined solid and look like a Phillips screw driver.
FWIW, many years ago I went on my first Texas hog hunt using hog dogs. You need to be in REAL good shape to do this as you might have a few miles to run to keep up with the dogs. Well we managed to get a 500lb+ hog on the end of the dogs. This hog was big enough for 2 men to ride. My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs. Never saw much value in a HP bullet after that. I've dropped coyotes with 357s using plated, lead bullets and they generally don't take a step after the Pythons go off. Same using a 30 carbine pistol. HPs to me can be more of a problem than a cure.

Rojo27

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Re: 230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 08:24:56 PM »
My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs.

Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described. 
I will however declare:  I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:22:37 PM by Rojo27 »