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Firearms => 10mm semi-auto handguns => Topic started by: Intercooler on January 10, 2018, 01:10:23 AM

Title: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 10, 2018, 01:10:23 AM
  It's written a little subjective to each shooter, but I find most of it pretty spot-on. I think the Ruger should have taken more of a hit for not chambering three times. That's really critical! It seems they also dinged the Stock II some for not having a fiber front. I think they ship with one and could have been swapped preventing that loss of points.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2018/01/10mm-pistol-test/
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 10, 2018, 03:30:21 AM
Hmmm... also no hits for the lower capacities?
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 4949shooter on January 10, 2018, 04:35:21 AM
And why would they use a different specific ammo for each gun? Seems to me they should be testing all the guns with the same ammo.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: TonyRumore on January 10, 2018, 04:48:31 AM
For a hunting gun, I would ding any pistol WITH a fiber optic front sight.

Tony

Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: sqlbullet on January 10, 2018, 09:41:43 AM
So, yeah.

Ammo should have been assigned to a stage, not to a gun.  That way each gun would have to eat each ammo, but it would normalize to the stage.

At least two of the stages should have given a benefit to higher capacity guns.  Reloads are a reality, but if early IPSC taught us nothing else, it is that more ammo is always better.  You could argue that the only reason 38 Super+ is still around today is that is made major with extra mag capacity.

Given that this is a personal defense specific article, I think there should be one other qualification.  Carry the gun for a day IWB including a big lunch.  I am carrying my Ruger SR1911 and EAA Witness more since Christmas as I put on a few holiday pounds and the smaller muzzle in my waistband is noticeable.  If you are going to ding the Glock for grip angle and chafing, which are both subjective, then you should include a category for carry comfort.  Of course, the Glock will suffer there too.

The reloading penalties seemed odd to me too.  They dinged the Witness 2 points for something that is easily corrected (mags not falling free) and the Ruger only 1 point while admitting it needed an aftermarket mag well fit.  Yes, I know you can get a Smith and Alexander mag well for $80, and that it is "drop-in".  But, it adds a half-inch to an already sizable grip, adds about an oz of weight to an already heavy gun, and still costs $80 where the Witness probably could have been fixed with technique (keep the button down a few milliseconds longer).

Finally, while I love my Ruger, and am, in fact, carrying it today, I think there should have been much bigger penalty for its ftf rate.  I am gonna assume there were four shooters, though I don't know why I think that.  Feels right since they had four guns?  In any event that would mean 360 rounds fired with 3 FTF's.  That is just a whisker under a 1% failure rate.  And that is certainly a high enough rate to cost you a match, maybe enough to cost you more in a real-world situation.  My Ruger has been 100% so far.  I have a couple hundred rounds through it.  I don't know if my gun or theirs is the outlier.  But, the only gun in the test with failures should not have come out on top.

my 2¢
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Canoe on January 11, 2018, 01:24:44 PM
That is a very subjective rating system.  A 1 point reduction for FTEs is kind of a joke considering the point ranges on the other more subjective criteria. 

Anyway the observations are interesting and one can re-score these however they want depending on what attributes are relevant to them.

When I look at the prices though, I scratch my head at the Legion.   I have the standard stainless P220 10mm that I'm trying hard to like.  I would expect the Legion would have done better in the trigger and in off hand accuracy given the premium.  Overall I'm a little 'meh' on the 220 10mms and seems like the Legion may not be a big step up from the other variants.  But I guess I'm spoiled with an X-gun.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: sqlbullet on January 11, 2018, 02:15:45 PM
Clearly scored by people who favor a 1911.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: SPDSR on January 11, 2018, 06:20:59 PM
Sig Legion front sight isn’t fiber optic, it’s a tritium vial with fluorescent colored ring around it like a Trijicon HD. They dinked the GLOCK for having trouble with the slide release, but GLOCK’s have a slide lock and have never recommended using the slide lock to chamber a round. That was kind of a bizarre “test”. Especially the different ammo thing and the sights.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: sqlbullet on January 12, 2018, 07:29:53 AM
They dinked the GLOCK for having trouble with the slide release, but GLOCK’s have a slide lock and have never recommended using the slide lock to chamber a round.

Like I say, it was pretty clearly an competition with criteria meant to show how the 1911 is best, no matter what.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 4949shooter on January 12, 2018, 12:50:49 PM
Glock actually calls it a slide stop.


#27:

https://www.google.com/search?q=glock+parts+list&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=sV4e844xqQSJmM%253A%252CKemZuuIBNJNnwM%252C_&usg=__uKDcZMrzKnCY2Kj561oDcBwaGRc%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT5KrDpdPYAhVjm-AKHfwEB2cQ9QEIKzAA#imgrc=sV4e844xqQSJmM:

But we know what you meant. Glock's nomenclature can be confusing.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: The Earl o Sammich on January 12, 2018, 06:50:43 PM
I think it's universally known as the slide stop, not release.  That's what it's main function is and I still remember the DI hammering that into me on the original 1911.  Rack and sling shot it.  It's not a release.  I guess the thinking is it can cause unnecessary wear on the slide where it catches to "STOP" it at the rear.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: fltbed on January 13, 2018, 10:45:33 AM
For a hunting gun, I would ding any pistol WITH a fiber optic front sight.

Tony
Why is that Tony?

Personally, I started using FO front sights 20 years ago in USPSA due to aging eyes.  Have them on all my handguns now and TFO's on my defensive guns.

Jeff
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Patriot on January 13, 2018, 09:53:00 PM
Eh. I've owned many 10mm pistols over the years, including 3 out of the 4 they tested.

Not only is the Witness Elite Stock 2 the superior of that bunch, it is by far the best 10mm handgun I've ever owned. It makes me want to sell all of my guns and load my safe with Witness Stock Pistols.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 01:25:28 AM
I seem to have your fondness of the Witness pistols myself  ;D
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 02:04:35 AM
Eh. I've owned many 10mm pistols over the years, including 3 out of the 4 they tested.

Not only is the Witness Elite Stock 2 the superior of that bunch, it is by far the best 10mm handgun I've ever owned. It makes me want to sell all of my guns and load my safe with Witness Stock Pistols.
What's your thoughts on the models with a rail? It's kind of the one thing I don't care for much.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Patriot on January 14, 2018, 09:35:57 AM
Eh. I've owned many 10mm pistols over the years, including 3 out of the 4 they tested.

Not only is the Witness Elite Stock 2 the superior of that bunch, it is by far the best 10mm handgun I've ever owned. It makes me want to sell all of my guns and load my safe with Witness Stock Pistols.
What's your thoughts on the models with a rail? It's kind of the one thing I don't care for much.

I don't add accessories to my pistols so I don't purchase them with rails (unless they don't come any other way like a Glock). I really can't say enough about the Stock 1 & 2 though. They are pricey around $1,000 but worth it. I'm serious when I say I'm considering getting rid of everything and just buying 3-4 more Stocks.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 11:12:51 AM
What are you seeing that makes the Stock pistols a cut above the other Witness pieces? That's interesting!
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 10mm4ever on January 14, 2018, 11:42:16 AM
Well I’ll try this again I had a pretty lengthy post and it got lost. I have all of the guns tested except for the Witness, and some that didn’t make the test because of availability. I think they all have strengths and weaknesses. I’ll give you my opinion on the ones I own.
1) S&W 1006,
strengths, built like a tank, accurate, slide mounted de-cocker, fit and finish good, fits the hand good, eats everything,reliable, ramped & supported barrel.
Weaknesses, parts availability (S&W no longer supports it), my first one had galling issues, not the easiest to conceal, DA/SA trigger (not bad in SA), single stack, mags$$$, holsters hard to find.
2) DW RZ 10,
Strengths, SAO trigger, fit and finish (oxymoron), 1911 controls, accurate, fits the hand, easy to get parts for, feeds from any mag even 45acp mags, reliable, great CS.
Weaknesses, fit finish (it started to gall when new), single stack, harder to modify, no front strap checkering, not easy to conceal, not quite as easy to strip.
3) G20,
Strengths, light, easy to get parts for, easy to modify, accurate, double stack, fits the hand reasonably well, don’t have to worry about hurting it, easy to strip.
Weaknesses,fit & finish (I can see light between frame and slide), lacking barrel support, reliability (I had to replace extractor when new), it’s not really any easier to conceal even being lighter and has a shorter barrel, Fugly and has no soul, trigger sucks even after work, no external safety.
4) SIG P220 10mm,
Strengths, weight, accurate, reliable, fits the hand well, SAO trigger, easy to strip, it’s a SIG, adjustable sights, ramped and supported barrel.
Weaknesses, weight, not many after market parts, mags $$$, holsters are hard to find (my Mitch Rosen fits my 1006+++) adjustable sights (they poke my side), not easy to conceal, SAO Trigger is no 1911 Trigger.
5) Colt Delta Elite Bobtail Commander (full custom)
Strengths, easiest to conceal and carry, built to my specs (oxymoron), ramped and supported barrel, accurate, feeds from any mag, SAO trigger (amazing) fits the hand perfectly, easy to find parts for, no mods needed (once the smith gets it right)
Weaknesses, BUILT TO MY SPECS (THIS GUN HAS BEEN BACK TO THE SMITH 3 TIMES TO GET IT RIGHT), single stack, it’s the hardest to strip (reverse recoil spring plug), PRICE if I had it to do over I would have bought a DW V-Bob 10mm or a Wilson Combat EDC-X9.

I prefer SAO triggers, that being said all of these guns are more than accurate enough for hunting or personal defense.
None of them conceal all that well for me except for the Commander.
Their all relatively heavy when loaded (even the Glock due 2x the ammo)
The current 1006 & P220 are the only ones that haven’t had any issues (DW’s customer service did a lot of mods on their dime when I had galling issues)
None of these guns like reloads after they come out of the G20. I used to only neck size, I guess I’ll have to start full length sizing.
They all throw brass into the next county.
After getting issues worked out they all run 100% all are accurate. I wish they were 100% out of the box, but even my custom Colt had issues (that can be expected when you cut a Government Model down to Commander length and throw 10mm’s through it).
Bottom line it comes down to personal preference and round count. I personally don’t think I’ll need more than 8-9 rounds, and I prefer the feel of a single stack frame.
I guess I’ll have to get a Witness so I can weigh in on it.
In my opinion there is no clear winner, unless you want a 10mm for EDC and then a Commander size wins.
Thanks for listening


Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Patriot on January 14, 2018, 12:06:38 PM
What are you seeing that makes the Stock pistols a cut above the other Witness pieces? That's interesting!

The Stock is basically the same as a standard Witness, however it is fined tuned for reliability. It still has the same great feel in your hand. Gone are the jams that plague the cheaper models. And the stainless is far better than the wonder finish. Very similar in quality/reliability of a Match, but in DA/SA. The base model Witness in wonder finish runs about $500. But every one I've ever owned had problems. Jam-o-matic. The wonder finish would also stain and turn black if it got wet in a nylon holster (happened twice to me). The Stock has no such issues and totally worth paying double the price.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Canoe on January 14, 2018, 12:35:24 PM

I don't add accessories to my pistols so I don't purchase them with rails (unless they don't come any other way like a Glock). I really can't say enough about the Stock 1 & 2 though. They are pricey around $1,000 but worth it. I'm serious when I say I'm considering getting rid of everything and just buying 3-4 more Stocks.

The Stock IIs looks very vice.  Seems like it is the DA/SA version of the Elite Limited/Limited Custom.  Heard you can get an "Australian" model with the 4.75" barrel instead of the 4.5".

1) S&W 1006... -my first one had galling issues, .....
2) DW RZ 10.... -fit finish (it started to gall when new).....

Great write up.
Not surprised that there was some galling with 1006 but I am surprised about the Dan Wesson.  Was it an older gun?  I thought most decent manufactures (of which DW is certainly one) had that figured out with more knowledge of the issue and access to different and better steels. 
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 10mm4ever on January 14, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
My 1006 was one of the early models, the galling was on the barrel lug where it engages the frame and no place else, I traded it off in 92-93ish, I bought another one this summer no sight of galling whatever.
The DW RZ10 was bought Jan 2016 it started galling with hand racking before ever being fired. DW had a lot of problems then with uncoated guns galling. They took care of lapping the frame (I didn’t let it get bad at all) they also did a trigger job, installed a tighter bushing, flattened and recessed my slide stop, installed new sights, installed a full length guide rod, tuned the extractor, the only charge was the price of the sights. I know a lot of guys don’t like full length guide rods, but they do stop The recoil spring from buckling under compression and helps give a silky feel when racking the slide. I polished the guide rod to a mirror finish, she glides silky smooth.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 10mm4ever on January 14, 2018, 01:07:28 PM
You guys got me thinking about a Witness which one is the best model SA triggger of course. Are their frames cast or forged? Do they use a lot of MIM parts (not a deal breaker my SIG has some). What kind of after market parts support is there. How hard is it to find nice leather holsters (plastic guns belong in plastic holsters)
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 01:16:56 PM
I had a DW RZ as well... key is had! Busted slide stop and had some issues with ammos. The 1006 was a cool-aid I tried too and it is a hell of a piece except the things you mentioned. The trigger sucked and especially in DA! I have never owned the other two in their testing. I have spent some time with both checking them out, but just didn't like the Glock grip and the Sig heft. My best experiences has been with what is highlighted in my sig  ;D
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 01:20:17 PM
  In the Witness SA trigger line I think they're all about the same. That would mean a Match, Limited, Hunter or P-Match (Polymer).
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Patriot on January 14, 2018, 01:34:37 PM
You guys got me thinking about a Witness which one is the best model SA triggger of course. Are their frames cast or forged? Do they use a lot of MIM parts (not a deal breaker my SIG has some). What kind of after market parts support is there. How hard is it to find nice leather holsters (plastic guns belong in plastic holsters)

I'd go with a Match. Can find them around $700 sometimes. Cheaper than dirt has them for $765 in stock.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/eaa-witness-elite-match-semi-auto-handgun-10mm-auto-475-barrel-15-rounds-black-rubber-grips-two-tone-finish-adjustable-sights-600650-741566111495.do
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Forrest on January 14, 2018, 01:54:22 PM
1911's need to be tested with the magazines they like....
The ammo idea was stupid. Amateur hour.
None of the loads was a real 10mm load. All pussycat loadings. Disparity between FMJ and JHP being using and we are grading on feeding? This smells like a review that skimped on ammo budget and range time buddies going to the range and doing a book report.
I think I'll keep the Delta and its Austrian brothers. I love the Delta and tolerate the brothers as they mount lights and are reliable as well as expendable.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Canoe on January 14, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
You guys got me thinking about a Witness which one is the best model SA triggger of course. Are their frames cast or forged? Do they use a lot of MIM parts (not a deal breaker my SIG has some). What kind of after market parts support is there. How hard is it to find nice leather holsters (plastic guns belong in plastic holsters)

Compared to others here i have very little knowledge of the EAA but I can share what I've learned.  I just picked up a Hunter.  The trigger was heavy (5.5# +) and a little gritty so I sent it too a smith who specializes in Tanfoglios comp guns.  He said with a bit of polishing (which is actually a DIY job for most - excepted me) he can bring it down to 3-3.5# without too much of a problem.  If i wanted lighter, I would probably have to look at aftermarket.  Don't know if they are MIM but he did say he thought the stock parts were decent so instead of swapping internals I may just chrome it.  There appears to be a pretty good range of aftermarket products available.
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: Intercooler on January 14, 2018, 03:04:20 PM
Bud's $727.00

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/738539726
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: 10mm4ever on January 14, 2018, 03:36:04 PM
I need to start a go fund me after what that custom Commander cost me. It’s definitely on my radar. Priorities? Trigger job for P220? Trigger job P938? Refinish 1873 SAA? Buy a Witness? Go fund me for my 10mm addiction. And I still don’t have a 10mm carbine >:(
Title: Re: 10mm pistol shoot-out article... Glock. Ruger, Witness, Sig
Post by: SPDSR on January 14, 2018, 03:57:27 PM
It’s $1.43 less at Kygunco. But they have free shipping, so $26.43 less. Never shot one personally.

https://www.kygunco.com/Product/View?ItemNo=48575